Rebarrel action choice.
- Thread starter Greener Jim
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Brithunter
Well-Known Member
There you go sorted
Scope mount for the M98 action and the P-H versions are offered by just about every major scope mounting manufacturer. Stocks are also offered in a wide variety and at under £100 then you have a good bit of your budget left too!
If you are going to use a FULL LENGTH P-Hale Mauser action then I'd elect to use a full length cartridge. 358 Winchester drops like a stone out past 100 yards. All of these .35"+ diameter cartridges do if they don't start off at a high velocity. 375 Winchester, 444 Marlin and etc., etc., they all have the ballistic parabola of a half house brick.
I'd go for something like 338-06 that is now a factory offered cartridge or even the 8mm-06 wildcat. As both have superior ballistic performance and being full length cartridges will exceed or equal and the same or lower pressure the 358 Winchester or 338 Federal with bullets of the 225 grain or 250 grain mark. Personally if I where confident or reloading I'd buy purpose headstamped 8mm-06 cases and load them with a 196 or 227 grain bullet and be done.
Going "metric"opens the doors to all the exotic TIG and TUG European bullets if you are are a reloader...BEWARE 300 H & H you'll need the bolt head modified and (usuall) work on the magazine well to get it to feed consistently and perhaps a "notch" on the rear of the front receiver ring too as Holland's did or do. It is NOT a simple re-barrel conversion on a standard P-Hale Mauser action rifle designed for .470" base diameter cartridges.
I'd go for something like 338-06 that is now a factory offered cartridge or even the 8mm-06 wildcat. As both have superior ballistic performance and being full length cartridges will exceed or equal and the same or lower pressure the 358 Winchester or 338 Federal with bullets of the 225 grain or 250 grain mark. Personally if I where confident or reloading I'd buy purpose headstamped 8mm-06 cases and load them with a 196 or 227 grain bullet and be done.
Going "metric"opens the doors to all the exotic TIG and TUG European bullets if you are are a reloader...BEWARE 300 H & H you'll need the bolt head modified and (usuall) work on the magazine well to get it to feed consistently and perhaps a "notch" on the rear of the front receiver ring too as Holland's did or do. It is NOT a simple re-barrel conversion on a standard P-Hale Mauser action rifle designed for .470" base diameter cartridges.
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Trajectory ain't that bad. 1" high at 100 yards gives 4" low at 200. Perfectly useable that.
It'd be a .308 or .243 mauser action so I imagine the full length stuff is off the cards. Although my familiarity with the mauser stuff ain't great but I'm trying t spam up on 'em. I'm aware that moving away from .308 head size will involve more work like. Just weighing up the options
It'd be a .308 or .243 mauser action so I imagine the full length stuff is off the cards. Although my familiarity with the mauser stuff ain't great but I'm trying t spam up on 'em. I'm aware that moving away from .308 head size will involve more work like. Just weighing up the options
alberta boy
Well-Known Member
Another excellent choice . I may be wrong , but I'm sure Lothar sells short clambered 98 barrels clambered in 9.3X62 . You would probably have a better selection of 9.3 bullet over there than 358 diameter bullets , they're even a bit scarce here at the moment . You're going to be using a standard length 98 action anyway, it might even feed better with the longer cartridge , and the weight would be the same with either round . It goes without saying that the 9.3X62 is a very capable round and will do anything the 358 will do, and more . Just a thought............. I love building someone else rifle , it's so much cheaper lol .
AB
A BLR Takedown lets you buy extra barrels for the same bolt face and action length, like 7mm-08 and .358 Win, or a 20-inch barrel for a moderator, and a 22 inch without. These are very accurate rifles, with a bolt that rotates and locks up with multiple small lugs, like a Steyr.
An 8mm-06 will get you about 10% more velocity than an 8x57 Mauser. So here's your cheapest and best solution: Buy a Mauser in 8x57IS.
There are gobs of used ones, and old ones from Sweden, many with scope bases. Restock it with nice wood. Reblue is with Brownell's cold blue. It beats the .358 Win with 200 grain bullets, shoots really flat and hits hard with the high BC 195 and 196-gr bullets, shoots 170 and 175 as mild deer loads like a 7x57, fairly hot, and 150-gr at over 2,900 FPS.
An 8mm-06 will get you about 10% more velocity than an 8x57 Mauser. So here's your cheapest and best solution: Buy a Mauser in 8x57IS.
There are gobs of used ones, and old ones from Sweden, many with scope bases. Restock it with nice wood. Reblue is with Brownell's cold blue. It beats the .358 Win with 200 grain bullets, shoots really flat and hits hard with the high BC 195 and 196-gr bullets, shoots 170 and 175 as mild deer loads like a 7x57, fairly hot, and 150-gr at over 2,900 FPS.
9.3x62 is a cracking calibre but in the UK we have some Home Office Guidelines which, although not written in stone, state '9.3 Mauser' as a dangerous game calibre. Which isn't entirely true as although you could shoot some dangerous game in some parts if the world, in most parts of Africa .375 is the minimum. So although it's far from impossible to get, it's a fight I don't want.
.358 isn't listed in the guidelines and as from the factory it's relatively downloaded it should be allowed and I've been told there shouldn't be any snags with it since it fits between .308 and 30-06 in muzzle energy.
Basically I'm after heavy bullets and this may be the easiest way to do that. 8x57 is great but 30-06 does the same but cheaper.
Perfect world...350 Rem Mag, 358 Norma Mag or 375 h&h and 300 h&h (but that'd be mainly if my local force want me with 30 cal max)
The rifle will be for all stalking in the UK, driven boar abroad, plains game and thin skinned dangerous stuff such as black bear. But I have to base my variation on what I have, not what I plan on.
.358 isn't listed in the guidelines and as from the factory it's relatively downloaded it should be allowed and I've been told there shouldn't be any snags with it since it fits between .308 and 30-06 in muzzle energy.
Basically I'm after heavy bullets and this may be the easiest way to do that. 8x57 is great but 30-06 does the same but cheaper.
Perfect world...350 Rem Mag, 358 Norma Mag or 375 h&h and 300 h&h (but that'd be mainly if my local force want me with 30 cal max)
The rifle will be for all stalking in the UK, driven boar abroad, plains game and thin skinned dangerous stuff such as black bear. But I have to base my variation on what I have, not what I plan on.
If you are planning to hunt Africa, can't you get a license for a .30-06 and a 375 H&H?
It is certainly true that a .30-06 and 8x57 are quite close in many ways, but the .30-06 has a much greater selection of sleek bullets in the 150 to 180-gr range, and a wide variety of bullet types. The 8x57, 8x60 and 8mm-06 are really in their domain with bullets of 195 and 200 grains. These bullets, in the 8mm are on higher level of performance than the .358 Win, if you want to shoot at distance ( BCs of .525 to .625 ).
8x57 means no rebarrel cost. So at least start your project there, shoot the 8x57, before changing barrels.
Bullets heavier than 200 gr in the .358 Win don't have the reach of the 8x57 or .30-06. A .338-08 or .338-06 offer better bullet selection and more reach.
.358 Win is a great woodland cartridge, perfect for Canada. A friend of mine rambles the mountains of the Carolinas with his BLR hunting dear and big boar. It is not a go-anywhere, do-all, kill-anything cartridge, like the .375 H&H. It is a great complement to a .270 or 7x64.
On paper, a lot of cartridges appear to be things they are not, and differences which don't jump off the page at you become apparent when you shoot them, especially on game.
It is certainly true that a .30-06 and 8x57 are quite close in many ways, but the .30-06 has a much greater selection of sleek bullets in the 150 to 180-gr range, and a wide variety of bullet types. The 8x57, 8x60 and 8mm-06 are really in their domain with bullets of 195 and 200 grains. These bullets, in the 8mm are on higher level of performance than the .358 Win, if you want to shoot at distance ( BCs of .525 to .625 ).
8x57 means no rebarrel cost. So at least start your project there, shoot the 8x57, before changing barrels.
Bullets heavier than 200 gr in the .358 Win don't have the reach of the 8x57 or .30-06. A .338-08 or .338-06 offer better bullet selection and more reach.
.358 Win is a great woodland cartridge, perfect for Canada. A friend of mine rambles the mountains of the Carolinas with his BLR hunting dear and big boar. It is not a go-anywhere, do-all, kill-anything cartridge, like the .375 H&H. It is a great complement to a .270 or 7x64.
On paper, a lot of cartridges appear to be things they are not, and differences which don't jump off the page at you become apparent when you shoot them, especially on game.
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alberta boy
Well-Known Member
Sorry brother , I forget about the amount of regulation you have to deal with . As southern pointed out , an 8X57 is a really good round but I'm a fan of the 35's too . I've used all of the rounds you've listed except the 358 NM . I've shot a friends 358 STW and to be honest if I'm going to deal with that much recoil , I'd go with a 375 H&H . I'm sure the 358 NM would be in the same recoil category .
I've used the 350RM off and on for about 30 years . It is a really underrated round and capable of taking the largest and meanest game we have . That being said , I never saw any real difference in performance between the 350RM and the 358 on big game . Back in the 80's I used speer 250 grain spire points in both rounds. They worked great on moose , elk and bear but were a bit heavy for deer . Over the last few years I used Nosler 225 gr partitions in both . This bullet IMHO is perfect for both , it shoots flat and penetrates very well on the big stuff . It really improves the performance of the 358 . I found the 250's a bit to heavy in he 358 . the velocities were a little low for reliable expansion beyond 200 yards . I was getting over 2450 fps with the 225's in my 358 without any pressure problems . If you're interested , I have a lot of current loading data that I can send you .
If you've decided on a 358 , you won't be disappointed . It was never intended to be a long range round , but there aren't to many animals it wont cleanly kill inside of 250 yards , which to be honest is further than most people should be shooting anyway ( I'm sure I'll regret saying that lol ) I think you've made an excellent choice , you won't go wrong with a 358 , ask Muir lol . If I can help out in any way with your build , let me know .
AB
Brithunter
Well-Known Member
As per normal here in the UK the idiots who wrote the law and regulations know little about what they write and regulate. Whilst 9.3mm is a calibre then then start confusing things by listing cartridges and called them calibres 
. Now 9.3x62 is a good round but the one more suitable for dangerous game in 9.3mm (0.366") caiblre of course is the 9.3x64mm however the firearms licesing don't seem to be able to work out that they are in fact different cartridges of different performance. This explains why there was such an issue of the range and hunting use in the UK use for my 9.3x57mm 
.
Now as for 9.3mm bullet choice ............................................. once again here in the UK the choice is very limited. In fact I resorted to buying bullets on day trips to France. Hopefully things on that front may have improved but knowing the UK importers somehow I doubt that they have improved much.
The P-H receivers use the standard Mauser thread as far as I am aware but if one is worried about the 51 mm case not feeding correctly then perhaps the 35 Whelen is a good alternative. Must admit that the .308 1100 Lwt I own gives no feeding issues from the magazine. BTW the chap who used to be with BASC firearms and last I heard was with the Gamekeeprs organisation in the same capacity stalks with a .358 Winchester chambered rifle ........................ darn can see his face in my mind but not recall the name right now.
BTW P-H did a limited number of rifles in 7.92mm (8x57) for an export order and some remained in the UK. York Guns was selling them as I recall the adverts in Guns review, yes it was along time back, but I got one from York Guns NIB about 12-15 or so years ago. Ahhh just hunted out an old magazine and it's of course George Wallace .
. Now 9.3x62 is a good round but the one more suitable for dangerous game in 9.3mm (0.366") caiblre of course is the 9.3x64mm however the firearms licesing don't seem to be able to work out that they are in fact different cartridges of different performance. This explains why there was such an issue of the range and hunting use in the UK use for my 9.3x57mm .Now as for 9.3mm bullet choice ............................................. once again here in the UK the choice is very limited. In fact I resorted to buying bullets on day trips to France. Hopefully things on that front may have improved but knowing the UK importers somehow I doubt that they have improved much.
The P-H receivers use the standard Mauser thread as far as I am aware but if one is worried about the 51 mm case not feeding correctly then perhaps the 35 Whelen is a good alternative. Must admit that the .308 1100 Lwt I own gives no feeding issues from the magazine. BTW the chap who used to be with BASC firearms and last I heard was with the Gamekeeprs organisation in the same capacity stalks with a .358 Winchester chambered rifle ........................ darn can see his face in my mind but not recall the name right now.
BTW P-H did a limited number of rifles in 7.92mm (8x57) for an export order and some remained in the UK. York Guns was selling them as I recall the adverts in Guns review, yes it was along time back, but I got one from York Guns NIB about 12-15 or so years ago. Ahhh just hunted out an old magazine and it's of course George Wallace
.that's the way I see it too, but...even as a registered firearms dealer in Ireland I would need to up my security if I would want such a "cannon" as a 9.3mm.... they have declared anything above 30cal as restricted. Pity. Would fit nicely in the old remmy long action I have lying around. Many German hunters use the 9.3x62 as an all-round cartridge and seem to think even on roe deer meat damage is not more than with smaller cartridges.
edi
MARCBO
Well-Known Member
Quite true, the slow heavy bullets destroy much less the the smaller ones that must be driven fast for effect. Although we found the 450gr, 50 caliber bullet I shot to take down a bison last December we could find no trace of the bullet path other than a hole in the hide. Bullet was found on the far side of the spine.
SS
alberta boy
Well-Known Member
Exactly . I'm always amazed when other hunters roll their eyes when they find out I use a 45/70 with 400 gr bullets for deer . They all seem to think it'll blow deer to pieces , ironically , most of them use 7mm RM's or 300WM's with light for caliber bullets . As most people here know , this combination will definitely do a lot of tissue damage . On any game I've taken with the 45/70 , including smaller white-tails , there is usually just a hole...... in a very dead animal , go figure .
AB
To whet your appetite, here is an original Oberndorf Mauser, standard 98 action, in 9.3x62, factory built in 1937.
It has a very long barrel ( 28 inches ), and a long forend, to put the sling out of the way of your hand, as it would on a barrel banded 23-inch barrel.
I have a similar one in 8x57IS, same year ( 1937), with a 600mm barrel.
View attachment 45201
A .35 Whelen would fit in there very well, too, or a .338-06, 9.3x64mm, or .358 Winchester
I know someone who uses a CZ 550 full stock carbine in 9.3x62mm on small deer, big deer, boar, bears, moose...
The .358 Win would work in a carbine, a 21-inch full stock Mauser 98 with a spoon handle.
It has a very long barrel ( 28 inches ), and a long forend, to put the sling out of the way of your hand, as it would on a barrel banded 23-inch barrel.
I have a similar one in 8x57IS, same year ( 1937), with a 600mm barrel.
View attachment 45201
A .35 Whelen would fit in there very well, too, or a .338-06, 9.3x64mm, or .358 Winchester
I know someone who uses a CZ 550 full stock carbine in 9.3x62mm on small deer, big deer, boar, bears, moose...
The .358 Win would work in a carbine, a 21-inch full stock Mauser 98 with a spoon handle.
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I couldn't agree more. That is why I want something big and slow. I'm not a fan of these modern whizz bang cartridges.
458x2" would be nice or one of the steyr bolt action 450 marlins. 20" barrel and a moddy sounds good. Whip the moddy off for something a little more compact.
Unfortunately, I just don't think I'd get it here. Even if I did, it'd mean everywhere I shoot (paid for stalks) being approved for .458 and that in itself is a big hurdle.
Firearms bods see the big calibre and panic.
Maybe I should just grow a set and smash it in! Worst they can do is say no and then I have the .358 win as a back up.
458x2" would be nice or one of the steyr bolt action 450 marlins. 20" barrel and a moddy sounds good. Whip the moddy off for something a little more compact.
Unfortunately, I just don't think I'd get it here. Even if I did, it'd mean everywhere I shoot (paid for stalks) being approved for .458 and that in itself is a big hurdle.
Firearms bods see the big calibre and panic.
Maybe I should just grow a set and smash it in! Worst they can do is say no and then I have the .358 win as a back up.
Brithunter
Well-Known Member
I believe that they called that their "Special African Model" and they are rare. Although 28" was the standard barrel length for this model some very special "Specials" came with a shorter 26" barrel. Barrels were offering in in Octagon or Round profiles. Just pulled the book down on "Original Obendorf Sporting rifles" to check the information.
That is right, The Special African, with a full standing rib on the barrel. I have a bunch of photos of that one, which appeared to have never been hunted. They are rare for several reasons, one being they went to Africa and got used a lot. This one sold in the US for $9,000. i have a bunch of photos of it, and other ones which I use when deciding how to make a stock or repair one.
The dealer who had it, a few years back had a Westley Richards Mauser in .375 H&H made for the coronation of Queen Elizabeth II. Not ornate, simply perfect. Never used, in its case.
My 8x57 Oberndorf is plain but a pure hunting rifle. It is fitted with Lyman receiver sight from the era, which quick detaches, and a folding leaf. Very accurate, too. Last time out with it, messing around, I shot two golf balls, off hand, at 100 meters or so.
The dealer who had it, a few years back had a Westley Richards Mauser in .375 H&H made for the coronation of Queen Elizabeth II. Not ornate, simply perfect. Never used, in its case.
My 8x57 Oberndorf is plain but a pure hunting rifle. It is fitted with Lyman receiver sight from the era, which quick detaches, and a folding leaf. Very accurate, too. Last time out with it, messing around, I shot two golf balls, off hand, at 100 meters or so.
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