Red Deer Ammo Suitability Survey

[bewsher500]

Done. But I must add that its not about calibre it should be about bullet placement. As long as it is deer legal calibre and you know the limits of the calibre and yourself, any calibre will do the job, as long as the bullet is in the right place.

IMO this is something that the DSC does not cover in enough detail

On a 2d target a 4" circle may well be considered good enough
but on a 3d quarry at an angle, on an incline, from a high seat, etc etc

Did it hit heart? Lung? Lung and Aorta? Liver? through bone first? ,
was the bullet a hard construction leaving small wound channel, did it shed a significant amount of weight/deform, was the bullet recovered?

The "bang flop" research should demonstrate a very clear response to being shot and with what calibre
Personally I would like to see more detail incorporated into exactly where the deer was shot

 

[Estudiente]

I don't know what level you are researching at, but IMHO the survey itself is not very well designed/ clear/ unbiased.

Bsc , signed off by a Dr.

 

[Tamar]

To the OP... Have you found any academic sources that you will be able to reference for this dissertation? (Edit: Any sources that you'll be able to reference at all? Academic sources will be a stretch I'd imagine)

Here are some that the OP could cite and which are freely accessible:
Performance of lead vs lead free bullets in ballistic soap http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0102015
Lead fragments in carcasses http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0005330
Efficacy of bullets on culling deer https://www.researchgate.net/public...on_Anonymous_Field_Records_from_Deer_Stalkers

He could also contact Mungo on here who is analysing data from SD members on terminal effects across species and calibres.

 

[Estudiente]

I certainly hope this day doesn't come. The lead ammo research group, or whatever it was called, was a complete shambles, and thankfully seems to have died away. I believe that in some places on the continent they have actually banned non-lead ammunition due to high incidence of ricochet.


To the OP... Have you found any academic sources that you will be able to reference for this dissertation? (Edit: Any sources that you'll be able to reference at all? Academic sources will be a stretch I'd imagine)

There are very few peer reviewed journals relating to hunting with firearms , plenty Police and Military based.

 

[Taff]

Just curious, but if 243 was removed just for red deer, who would police this on estates where, you have mixed deer species, it seems to me that deer stalkers just like to make problems for themselves, or are we going to see the return of gun bearers.
As has been said on many occasions it's about bullet placement not calibre or velocity.

 

[Estudiente]

Here are some that the OP could cite and which are freely accessible:
Performance of lead vs lead free bullets in ballistic soap http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0102015
Lead fragments in carcasses http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0005330
Efficacy of bullets on culling deer https://www.researchgate.net/public...on_Anonymous_Field_Records_from_Deer_Stalkers

He could also contact Mungo on here who is analysing data from SD members on terminal effects across species and calibres.

Thanks ,I`ll go through those.

 

[Estudiente]

Here are some that the OP could cite and which are freely accessible:
Performance of lead vs lead free bullets in ballistic soap http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0102015
Lead fragments in carcasses http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0005330
Efficacy of bullets on culling deer https://www.researchgate.net/public...on_Anonymous_Field_Records_from_Deer_Stalkers

He could also contact Mungo on here who is analysing data from SD members on terminal effects across species and calibres.

I used that last one quite a bit(makes good reading for any stalker) , the second looks useful , the first may have some use , again many thanks.

 

[sir-lamp-alot]

the .243 is fine for deer use across the board and i dont think anyone is going to honestly say that a .243 couldnt kill any u.k. deer species its not the caliber which is the problem its who's sat behind it which is the problem. people now seem to be diving straight into owning deer caliber rifles from the get go and they pick the .243 as its the minimum and they know its going to be there best chance of getting a yes from the police. i honestly would love to see people being restricted to rimfires for the 1st 2 yrs then upto but not including .243 for the next 2yrs after that and after 4yrs they can apply for .243 and upwards and to be able to take deer it really wouldnt hurt people to learn there craft on smaller game and work there way up to foxes then deer maybe then the .243 wont be viewed as a novices deer stalking rifle and the people with them will actually have a bit of trigger time under there belts before they take on the responsibilty of taking deer

 

[Estudiente]

Just curious, but if 243 was removed just for red deer, who would police this on estates where, you have mixed deer species, it seems to me that deer stalkers just like to make problems for themselves, or are we going to see the return of gun bearers.
As has been said on many occasions it's about bullet placement not calibre or velocity.

Stalking in the UK is almost self policing ,most of us abide by the law , if you are allowed a .243 the Police have no reason to refuse a .308 , as for placement I agree its essential for sure but imagine a worst case scenario , if someone has a rifle that only shoots 2" groups with good ammo then add cheap ammo plus a shooter who struggles to shoot 4" groups at 100yds ........................

 

[norma 308]

all done and filled in ,I've owned a 243 several don't now !
Norma

 

[Estudiente]

all done and filled in ,I've owned a 243 several don't now !
Norma

Thank You.

 

[Glen of Imaal]

Done, if it's of use to you, though I am in a different jurisdiction. Best of luck with your dissertation.

 

[AN DU RU FOX]

Done ,

 

[bewsher500]

people now seem to be diving straight into owning deer caliber rifles from the get go and they pick the .243 as its the minimum and they know its going to be there best chance of getting a yes from the police.

Stalking in the UK is almost self policing ,most of us abide by the law , if you are allowed a .243 the Police have no reason to refuse a .308 ,

and herein lies the problem!!
The Police...not known for their knowledge of external ballistics or terminal effect on game!!

 

[dlz90]

View attachment 68200

You just gotta love it lol.......


Anyways my tuppence worth to this thread the 243 works just fine with good shot placement I have seen em wounded with the larger cals the nut behind the butt and all that, I know of a recently retired forest ranger who shot deer all his life with a .243 he tried 6.5 308 and 270s in his time and went back to his trusty .243 lakelander why because it worked, that said I think the dsc is a good course its not perfect but in introducing a novice to deer stalking someone who in all likely hood know's nothing about the energys of all these rifles and the inherent risk to public safety they pose then animal welfare aside that can only be a good thing.

 

[berg]

I personally would never choose to cull any large deer in the UK with a .243. I also think that the .243's days are numbered as we will eventually be forced to use non lead ammunition and the .243 will not be fit for purpose without it. If I were advising a novice about purchase of a new rifle, I would not recommend a .243 other than for small deer. It would not surprise me if the minimum calibre was raised to .250/6.5mm.
I'm sure that prospect will not sit well with many folk on here, but it could become a reality.
MS

Not sure I agree with that mike I have just got hold of some Barnes ttsx 80 grn bullets and with hornady gmx it won't be long before a hundred gr is brought out .and with Barnes they recommend you drop a weight any way so I am sure it won't come to much, it won't help anyone who is on FC land as you cant use home loads on there land . that more of a worry as i hear that MOD are thinking of adopting the same policies .there is more chance the use of home loads in public areas being banned then the .243 being declassified for use on red .

 

[ejg]

Reading some of the answers ??? Bullet placement, What does that have to do with the cartridge? or will a 243 automatically produce better "bullet placement"? A stalker that dumps the energy of say a 7-08 or 308 into an animal vs the energy of a 243 will in all likelihood kill the animal quicker. We must ask ourselves do we want our deer to die quicker? It is not about individual cases or mishaps but rather what is logic.
Of course some individuals will have difficulties with the recoil of a 7-08/308/270, if they have difficulties they should sort them before shooting at animals or leave it. Training, target shooting, off-hand practice would do most of us good and will in all likelihood also lead to less wounding....no matter what cartridge we choose to use.
Generally I think the standard of shooting in the UK and Ireland is very good.
edi

 

[Monkey Spanker]

Not sure I agree with that mike I have just got hold of some Barnes ttsx 80 grn bullets and with hornady gmx it won't be long before a hundred gr is brought out .and with Barnes they recommend you drop a weight any way so I am sure it won't come to much, it won't help anyone who is on FC land as you cant use home loads on there land . that more of a worry as i hear that MOD are thinking of adopting the same policies .there is more chance the use of home loads in public areas being banned then the .243 being declassified for use on red .

You're missing the point. You can't drop a weight when the law in Scotland has a minimum weight of 100 grains! The .243 is not capable of stabilising a 100 grain copper bullet which is why it doesn't exist.
MOD (DDM) are currently running reloading courses, but copper bullets are banned from use on MOD ranges. People in power need to be aware of the consequences before decisions are made or deer management will come to a standstill! It's a big can of worms which will undoubtedly be opened!
MS

 

[8x57]

Generally I think the standard of shooting in the UK and Ireland is very good.
edi

I can't speak about Ireland ejg but I'm not so sure about shooting standards in the U.K. .

I've witnessed some pretty dreadful shooting when shooters are put to the test. The problem being that many never learned to shoot properly in the first place and many never practice. I've come across a few shooters who weren't confident or should that be competent to take a shot at 50 yards from any other position than on their bellies using a bipod.

 

[jcampbellsmith]

I can't speak about Ireland ejg but I'm not so sure about shooting standards in the U.K. .

I've witnessed some pretty dreadful shooting when shooters are put to the test. The problem being that many never learned to shoot properly in the first place and many never practice. I've come across a few shooters who weren't confident or should that be competent to take a shot at 50 yards from any other position than on their bellies using a bipod.

Agree. Standards vary dramatically. Lack of training is one issue, lack of places to practice and compete is an even bigger issue. Regards JCS