Refusal advice

[SC3]

Let me ask my wife her view on whether you can request a further fact finding hearing.
She was a 16.4 guardian for over 10 years and attended many hearings, acting as the expert witness for the judge wrt the wishes and feelings of the child in private court matters.

Afaik, no findings in the family courts that she attended ever involved police or criminal sanction afterwards as the bar is so much lower.

Will let you know.

I had discussed with family about doing it all again, but it was decided it's not worth the hassle, because all in all, it meant nothing. The family court hearing bares nothing on my shotgun application, the both haven't even met.

With family court, your wife will probably say, the findings will be the same, or it'll get rejected if I wanted to do it again, because the Judge has already made her decision.

As I say, at the time in family court, it didn't mean a thing to me and didn't really have any affect, it was just tit for tat, as I took her to court over the kids, then she started making it all about herself, just to make arrangements difficult.

 

[TringSaint]

A person is not innocent merely because they weren’t convicted in court.

How do?

So let’s say that I accuse you of theft and report it to the police. The police investigate and fail to find any evidence of the crime having been committed and refuse to take it forwards or, even better, don’t even investigate because there is no evidence.

So, in that scenario, are you innocent or guilty in the eyes of the law (and I’m not talking about if you actually did it or not!!)?

Plenty of perps are ‘guilty’ but get off on a technicality, but imho, if the police don’t even interview the suspect then it seems likely that there is nothing to question on, or the acts are not deemed to be criminal.

We have to assume innocence until evidence proves otherwise, else we end up like the US!

 

[mealiejimmy]

If no conviction or charges are held or in process then a person is innocent - simple as that. Authorities cannot penalise based on allegations and hearsay, they either charge the person or not.

Erring n the side of caution would be circumstance such as a pending charge or conviction - the OP has stated this is not a recent thing and therefore there is no state of limbo or delay prior to charges being brought.

The Plymouth situation was gross misconduct by the police - it is nothing like this case as this applicant has no previously charges or convictions.

Wrong - the police can and do refuse applications and renewals on suspicion and allegations of activities not conducive to being an FAC/SGC holder
The onus of proof is on the applicant - and proving a negative (I didn't do it) can be very difficult

Cheers

Bruce

 

[TringSaint]

I had discussed with family about doing it all again, but it was decided it's not worth the hassle, because all in all, it meant nothing. The family court hearing bares nothing on my shotgun application, the both haven't even met.

With family court, your wife will probably say, the findings will be the same, or it'll get rejected if I wanted to do it again, because the Judge has already made her decision.

As I say, at the time in family court, it didn't mean a thing to me and didn't really have any affect, it was just tit for tat, as I took her to court over the kids, then she started making it all about herself, just to make arrangements difficult.

Will still ask her advice, as before she was a guardian she was a CPS prosecutor and before that she was in the police!!

 

[SC3]

Will still ask her advice, as before she was a guardian she was a CPS prosecutor and before that she was in the police!!

Thank you. It will be interesting to hear what her opinion is.

 

[User00040]

Wrong - the police can and do refuse applications and renewals on suspicion and allegations of activities not conducive to being an FAC/SGC holder
The onus of proof is on the applicant - and proving a negative (I didn't do it) can be very difficult

Cheers

Bruce

Sounds like someone has been reading or watching 'Minortiy Report'.

'I hear you've been a very naughty boy/girl person !!!'

Poachers who were caught red handed (literally) by FC Rangers have then been allowed to keep their FAC.

Friends in 'high' places perhaps...

 

[Liveonce]

Well in my case, nothing went to court over the allegations, there wasn't even a charge. As I said, I didn't even know about it until it was brought up when I took her to family court.

Did you declare any of this on the SGC application form or discuss it with the FEO prior to the refusal?

How recent was all this? If recent they may suggest you to wait a few years and apply again, in the mean time shoot with your friend as you have been doing.

 

[SC3]

Did you declare any of this on the SGC application form or discuss it with the FEO prior to the refusa?

How recent was all this? If recent they may suggest you to wait a few years and apply again, in the mean time shoot with your friend as you have been doing.

No, not declared as it is only convictions which are to be declared. I've never been convicted of anything other than a speeding offence. FEO didn't bring any of it up.

This was all 5 years ago.

 

[Liveonce]

No, not declared as it is only convictions which are to be declared. I've never been convicted of anything other than a speeding offence. FEO didn't bring any of it up.

This was all 5 years ago.

5 years is generally acceptable for such “minor” domestic incidents, however we are now living in the post Plymouth world. Join the CPSA they still I think have legal cover for this, however you would probably needed to be a member before you were refused the SGC.

If the Police will not move on it after a discussion with the FEO and or letters to the firearms manager then a Judge will be the only way of potentially overturning the Police decision.

As I say win win situation for the Police.

 

[gixer1]

Wrong - the police can and do refuse applications and renewals on suspicion and allegations of activities not conducive to being an FAC/SGC holder
The onus of proof is on the applicant - and proving a negative (I didn't do it) can be very difficult

Cheers

Bruce

Wrong -There is no suspicion at this time as there is no intention to prosecute. If, as the OP says this is “years ago” the authorities have missed the boat to charge and prosecute if the allegations were that length of time.

If you feel this is incorrect - please explain exactly what time frame such allegations would hang over the applicant? 2 years? 5 years? 10? Life??

Remember that the legislation states they must provide good reason for refusing a certificate……using “she said this 2 years ago” is not one.

 

[Bowland blades]

A person is not innocent merely because they weren’t convicted in court.

The person is found " not guilty " in crown court and I dont think we have a more than the two verdicts in the UK ?

 

[Liveonce]

Wrong -There is no suspicion at this time as there is no intention to prosecute. If, as the OP says this is “years ago” the authorities have missed the boat to charge and prosecute if the allegations were that length of time.

If you feel this is incorrect - please explain exactly what time frame such allegations would hang over the applicant? 2 years? 5 years? 10? Life??

Remember that the legislation states they must provide good reason for refusing a certificate……using “she said this 2 years ago” is not one.

all logical however to be granted a SGC, FAC the decision that you are a fit and proper person to do so lies entirely at the discretion of the Chief Constable, simple as that, if you disagree then only a Judge can overturn the decision.

 

[SC3]

5 years is generally acceptable for such “minor” domestic incidents, however we are now living in the post Plymouth world. Join the CPSA they still I think have legal cover for this, however you would probably needed to be a member before you were refused the SGC.

If the Police will not move on it after a discussion with the FEO and or letters to the firearms manager then a Judge will be the only way of potentially overturning the Police decision.

As I say win win situation for the Police.

From what I've read, CPSA etc may fight renewal refusals, but not first grant.

 

[gixer1]

And 5 years ago??? The people that think the police are “just being cautious” are bonkers, so to recap-

- Allegations made by ex partner.
- No charges.
- No convictions.

Nothing to answer for and should have no bearing on the application of a SGC or FAC.

 

[gixer1]

all logical however to be granted a SGC, FAC the decision that you are a fit and proper person to do so lies entirely at the discretion of the Chief Constable, simple as that, if you disagree then only a Judge can overturn the decision.

Agreed, but he must base the decision on something. Even the chief constable has to have a traceable record on the reasoning behind a decision. He can’t just make one and say “well, I just got a bad feeling about this’un”…..

If that wasn’t the case we may all be in trouble!

 

[Bavarianbrit]

I have had my partner for 43 years now but we never married as she was coming off a bad divorce, I have never been married, now I am glad I did not as it seems to go toxic to dissolve it whereby I can just walk away.

 

[VSS]

I have had my partner for 43 years now but we never married as she was coming off a bad divorce, I have never been married, now I am glad I did not as it seems to go toxic to dissolve it whereby I can just walk away.

You really believe that?
The end of any relationship can go toxic, married or not.

 

[Liveonce]

Agreed, but he must base the decision on something. Even the chief constable has to have a traceable record on the reasoning behind a decision. He can’t just make one and say “well, I just got a bad feeling about this’un”…..

If that wasn’t the case we may all be in trouble!

They have a reason his domestic split.

Very easy to be in trouble, they remove guns at the slightest hint of any risk. They encourage you to voluntary hand them over as it looks better on you whilst they review, investigate the situation. All sounds sensible.
However in doing so you lose any legal right to appeal. They then go on to take months, years to review the situation and you are powerless to do anything.

 

[mealiejimmy]

Wrong -There is no suspicion at this time as there is no intention to prosecute. If, as the OP says this is “years ago” the authorities have missed the boat to charge and prosecute if the allegations were that length of time.

If you feel this is incorrect - please explain exactly what time frame such allegations would hang over the applicant? 2 years? 5 years? 10? Life??

Remember that the legislation states they must provide good reason for refusing a certificate……using “she said this 2 years ago” is not one.

This is from the Firearms Act:

Special provisions about firearm certificates.​

[F7(1)A firearm certificate shall be granted where the chief officer of police is satisfied—

(a)that the applicant is fit to be entrusted with a firearm to which section 1 of this Act applies and is not a person prohibited by this Act from possessing such a firearm;

(b)that he has a good reason for having in his possession, or for purchasing or acquiring, the firearm or ammunition in respect of which the application is made; and

(c)that in all the circumstances the applicant can be permitted to have the firearm or ammunition in his possession without danger to the public safety or to the peace.]

When an application is refused, the police write to the applicant giving reasons for the refusal.
If the applicant thinks those are not "good reasons" then he/she can can appeal
Also, bear in mind that we only have the OPs side of the story to go on - we are not privvy to all the information the police had when coming to their decision

Cheers

Bruce

 

[gixer1]

They have a reason his domestic split.

Very easy to be in trouble, they remove guns at the slightest hint of any risk. They encourage you to voluntary hand them over as it looks better on you whilst they review, investigate the situation. All sounds sensible.
However in doing so you lose any legal right to appeal. They then go on to take months, years to review the situation and you are powerless to do anything.

You think a domestic split 5 years ago with no charges on convictions is a valid reason?

I can (at a stretch) see the reasoning for taking guns away from people who are going through a current volatile split if the police have been called relating to the split…..but not for just a split, many people end relationships everyday, we should not use our hobby or in many cases livelihood simply because some cases involve volatility.

If that was the case they would need to take driving licences away as well as surely there is as much risk with someone driving if they are tired, depressed etc?