Refusal advice
- Thread starter SC3
- Start date
enfieldspares
Well-Known Member
Buying? It is, I believe, illegal to purchase or acquire a shotgun for which you do not have valid authority which in this case would be an SGC.
No
It is illegal to take possession of a shotgun or firearm for which you do not have valid authority
Otherwise every auction house in the country would be shut down.
Plenty of people shooting with there mates, renting and borrowing shotguns from individuals and businesses.
enfieldspares
Well-Known Member
I cannot agree. And a shotgun is a very different animal from a s1 licensed firearm. Because a Shotgun Certificate is "open" as long as you have a valid SGC you can bid on and buy any shotgun as the SGC being "open" is your authority to acquire. An FAC however only authorises you to possess, or acquire, those firearms listed on it. If you have a doubt ask your local police authority. There is long standing case law on this concerning the matter. It is about who has "title" to the item. That is who owns it as possession in British firearms law is not only about control but also ownership. A number of pistol clubs were prosecuted for doing just as you've suggested. They allowed members without an authority for it to possess or acquire a pistol or revolver or indeed no FAC at all, to buy pistols or revolvers that never left the club premises. Yet were prosecuted for unlawfully selling them to persons not authorised to acquire them. That is circumvented by many auction houses taking a 90% or 95% payment with the balance on actual transfer. But I'll disagree strongly with you that possession is mere physical possession. It is also about who holds "title".
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ColinJ
Well-Known Member
Going to beg to differ on this, see Section 4 of the Firearms Act 1968.
enfieldspares
Well-Known Member
Erm s4 is about conversion of weapons? I am looking at s1 and s2 here:
(a)to have in his possession, or to purchase or acquire, a firearm to which this section applies without holding a firearm certificate in force at the time, or otherwise than as authorised by such a certificate;
1Requirement of firearm certificate.
(1)Subject to any exemption under this Act, it is an offence for a person—(a)to have in his possession, or to purchase or acquire, a firearm to which this section applies without holding a firearm certificate in force at the time, or otherwise than as authorised by such a certificate;
2Requirement of certificate for possession of shot guns.
(1)Subject to any exemption under this Act, it is an offence for a person to have in his possession, or to purchase or acquire, a shot gun without holding a certificate under this Act authorising him to possess shot guns.3Business and other transactions with firearms and ammunition.
(2)It is an offence for a person to sell or transfer to any other person in the United Kingdom, other than a registered firearms dealer, any firearm or ammunition to which section 1 of this Act applies, or a shot gun, unless that other produces a firearm certificate authorising him to purchase or acquire it or, as the case may be, his shot gun certificate, or shows that he is by virtue of this Act entitled to purchase or acquire it without holding a certificate.
ColinJ
Well-Known Member
Important lesson, don’t comment on threads late at night. You’re quite right. It’s not Section 4 I’m thinking of, it’s Section 3 (2).
FEO asked me if I have a cabinet, I said no nothing yet in case I don't get a grant. Then the FEO said on the phone if I have a cabinet that it would speed the process up.
I stupidly believed what some people at the grounds said, which was 'oh if he's doing a visit, you'll get the grant, they won't waste their time if not'.
I also believed that it was a requirement of a grant.
So just an update for you all.
It may come as no surprise to you that I didn't appeal, because I just don't really think that I'd be successful, given what the Home Office guidance is regarding the matter, even though they were only allegations. I can't give the time and effort and risk the chance of losing and having to pay out third party costs. I am otherwise very busy and to be honest at the moment I don't have a lot of cash spare at the end of the month, so financing this would not be considered responsible action by my dependants.
However, I did manage to speak directly with someone from the Licencing Team, a Public Safety and Case Officer who was the actual person who refused my grant. We discussed the merits of the case, the allegations, what they actually mean and the Home Office guidance etc.
Perhaps the Officer took on board what I've been saying, my side of the story, as at the end of the discussion, the officer said 'without prejudice, apply again in a few years'. I won't read into that at all (as I read into the Police wanting to do a visit and interview me, thinking they won't waste their time doing that if it's going to be a no - and I got that wrong), it could well mean, give it the necessary time and you'll get a grant - or it could mean, go away and we'll refuse you again later, who knows.
Thanks all so far, so we'll see what happens. In the meantime I haven't even had the chance to get to the club with my shotgun friend, so even if I did get my grant, I'd have still not even shot a cartridge of my own!
It may come as no surprise to you that I didn't appeal, because I just don't really think that I'd be successful, given what the Home Office guidance is regarding the matter, even though they were only allegations. I can't give the time and effort and risk the chance of losing and having to pay out third party costs. I am otherwise very busy and to be honest at the moment I don't have a lot of cash spare at the end of the month, so financing this would not be considered responsible action by my dependants.
However, I did manage to speak directly with someone from the Licencing Team, a Public Safety and Case Officer who was the actual person who refused my grant. We discussed the merits of the case, the allegations, what they actually mean and the Home Office guidance etc.
Perhaps the Officer took on board what I've been saying, my side of the story, as at the end of the discussion, the officer said 'without prejudice, apply again in a few years'. I won't read into that at all (as I read into the Police wanting to do a visit and interview me, thinking they won't waste their time doing that if it's going to be a no - and I got that wrong), it could well mean, give it the necessary time and you'll get a grant - or it could mean, go away and we'll refuse you again later, who knows.
Thanks all so far, so we'll see what happens. In the meantime I haven't even had the chance to get to the club with my shotgun friend, so even if I did get my grant, I'd have still not even shot a cartridge of my own!
There may be some truth in what they say.
I can’t claim any first hand experience but it does seem that the FLD approach can be to remove firearms from potentially volatile situations without putting too much thought to whether the accused is actually guilty of what they’re accused.
Once the dust has settled and they’re happy the situation is in the past then they may have no issue with you having certs back, as the worry is gone and the chances of someone doing something rash are massively reduced.
I can’t claim any first hand experience but it does seem that the FLD approach can be to remove firearms from potentially volatile situations without putting too much thought to whether the accused is actually guilty of what they’re accused.
Once the dust has settled and they’re happy the situation is in the past then they may have no issue with you having certs back, as the worry is gone and the chances of someone doing something rash are massively reduced.
TringSaint
Well-Known Member
Time is a great healer.
Maybe join a shooting club. Become a well respected member and demonstrate your suitability to hold a firearm.
The input from a club, other fac /sgc holders who shoot with you, good character witnesses, etc will all help to paint a picture of you as a person and will demonstrate that the former allegations are without merit.
No guarantees here but it would give you a better chance I feel of being successful next time round.
Rake Aboot
Well-Known Member
But they know the vast majority will not have the financial means to appeal.
baguio
Well-Known Member
No offence but that's easy said when it's not your money. The legal system don't take shirt buttons as payment. If you lose your appeal you will also be required to pay the Police Force's legal costs. That could easily cost North of £10K. Not a sensible risk IMO when the OP can still go shooting anyway and doesn't need a shotgun certificate, he would just like one. The roof over his family's head is considerably more important!
Rake Aboot
Well-Known Member
The police have a procedure to appeal outwith courts and legal proceedings no ?
No your only appeal is via the courts
markj1
Well-Known Member
I can only assume that it varies from one force to another.
I know a fellow Section 1 FAC holder who stopped shooting and said he had his firearms seized due to 'accusations of domestic violence', then after a few months joined the shoot and said that the matter was resolved and he got his firearms back.
I did not ask for details, but it does seem that there's a way to deal with false domestic violence accusations. But again, possibly different forces have different attitudes.
I know a fellow Section 1 FAC holder who stopped shooting and said he had his firearms seized due to 'accusations of domestic violence', then after a few months joined the shoot and said that the matter was resolved and he got his firearms back.
I did not ask for details, but it does seem that there's a way to deal with false domestic violence accusations. But again, possibly different forces have different attitudes.
Firearms seized and certificate revoked are very different things
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