Reloading 12 bore eco friendly load
- Thread starter Essexsussex
- Start date
If you follow the link put here by 'Marcher' (copied into my own post one up from here 'Muir') you will see that there actually ARE Commercially produced all encompassing cups made out of recycled paper or card for just this purpose - surrounding the steel shot to keep it away from the internal barrel surface during the steel shot's short journey up the bore during launch time... Looks like they should suffice for the job in hand, though the shotshell reloader is charged with placing a '"Nitro Card" under the cup to provide support up the barrel and help with gases obturation, AND to make longitudinal cuts into the cylindrical walls of the cups so that the shot can be quickly discharged from said cup by peel-back of the walls as soon as air resistance is met outside of the bore, upon firing - as per the normal shot-cup launching process of standard plasti-cup enhanced shells..
An excellent idea and one that was an obvious product improvement for the home-loaders I'm sure you will agree 'Muir'!?
ATB ..... and shoot safely
Actually, it's interesting that ClayGame have got their hands on them. I'm not convinced that they are worth having, nor necessary with a modern gun actually designed from the outset to shoot "steel" (actually soft sintered iron, if made properly).
Take a look at e.g.
for some thoughts on what appear to be very similar things.
Now, my little clay shoot, based on a small organic farm, pretty much developed Gamebore Super Steel 24 gram size 7.5 steel shot, fibre/cardboard wad cups, but not completely enclosing the shot column, and we put thousands and thousands of these through all sorts of guns with never a problem. We had to special order them for start of the clay season and it took a working party to unload them and stack them up in the barn.
They weren't advertised, Gamebore used to run us off a big batch in anonymous transparent plastic cases so that we could at least see that they hadn't gone rusty in storage, that could have been very bad. Actually I think I still have a few slabs left dated 2009, so might do a dissection to see what might have changed by now.
They weren't really very good, but did work, we adjusted the ranges of the traps down a bit, picked up a lot more re-usable clays and AFAIK never did a hint of damage to any of our guns, some very fine indeed. And the choice was them, or give up the shoot.
But then one year they just refused to take another order. Something must have gone wrong in their supply chain, or they simply couldn't be bothered with our business any more.
Lets see, here is an offer, I would like to dispose of (low estimate) 75 oz of lead, 25 times/ year, say 20 people each time, by scattering it across your land. And do it year on year on year, with no possibility of remediating the land, whilst the cattle continue to graze on it and chew the cud.
I mean, in what crazy world does it make any sort of sense to say shoot off maybe 75 rounds of 1 oz lead and plastic, maybe 20 regulars, every fortnight, over a few acres of land that is otherwise grazed by rare breed organic beef cattle and other things, that then drains onto wetland that is SSSI. I reckon that's over two tons of lead, year on year on year, for a very modest little private club.
As for the plastic "eco wad" alternatives, well AFAIK there is still only one.
You can't buy it as a component. AFAIK. Nor I think would you want to, It is heavy, and turns quickly into slimey gloop if wetted.
A lot of EU money went into developing it, into Spain. Armusa, Green Shoot, Plasticos Hidrosolubles, SL of Valencia.
A few links for you to form your own opinions:
Shooting without trace - Clay Shooting magazine
Richard Atkins tests new cartridges from Armusa, a leading Spanish manufacturer with green credentials
www.clay-shooting.com
Frankly I think plastic wads are the work of the devil, if ever allowed should at least be coloured blaze orange, and picked up. Not disguised as innocuous transparent things that can just be, well, forgotten about.
As is lead, it's had it's day. But oh no, the die hard clay shooters will continue to insist on lead and plastic wads, the old boys just won't accept that the world has moved on and will continue to cheat by using the stuff where it is absolutely not allowed.
As for say Bismuth, well guess where it comes from. A trace element from smelting lead. Technically nearly as rare as Gold, I think. but basically valueless because it has no particular use except for say alloying in specialist solders. Not for blasting out of shotguns.
Gamebore will continue to proudly boast of having the last remaining lead shot tower in the UK and presumably plan to keep on chucking stuff down it, I dunno, melted up car batteries, or whatever, down basically a chimney with sieves at the top and bottom and I guess a fan system to keep blowing cold air up it (and whatever then blows out of the top).
Now that would make an interesting factory tour video.
Actually, no, you do not, that's just well let's say FUD or plain ignorance of how a well behaved "steel" i.e. soft iron, shot load can behave whether it be shot through an old gun with at least nitro proof and suitable chokes, or a top notch modern thing with chambers, barrels and chokes designed for the job.
Nope. no barrel eating. Unless you do something completely ludicrously and ridiculously stupid.
Problem is, there are plenty of rickety old pieces that possibly are not up to the job (and probably never were even with just lead and black powder). So a blanket introduction of "steel" well I'd prefer it to be called iron, because that is what it is, simply cannot be done safely, with all the variabilities involved.
But there are still these sentimentalists who fantasise about how their manky old pieces (that they still think might be worth tens of thousands of £,) are so much better than anything modern.
Now, there are possibly those who just like to live in the past, maybe use their father's gun, even his father's before him, tootle around in maybe a 1930s Bentley, or an old Aston, all modern progress being of course for the worse, and the old guns, and their old owners, who don't believe in practice, being naturally superiorly skilled, having been told so from birth onwards, well at least some of the city boys aren't too proud to book into a shooting school for a refresher before their annual company jaunt on a big bird day, or heaven help us, "high birds".
Well.
The voice of experience speaks. I am humbled.~Muir
Oh dear. Quoting Chuckhawks is really scraping the barrel. I thought you were better than that.
Fact is I've been shooting steel, with fibre wads, against clays for more than ten years, as have we all in my little club, virtually since they were invented over here. I'd guess that we each averaged about 2000 shots/year, some many more, for more than a decade. Through everything from Perazzis, Winchester, Browning, Miroku, Benelli, oh I forget, even Hatsans just digested the stuff. And I do hope that it can only get better.
Certainly they were rather compromised when we started, but worked with the then sole supplier who showed any interest.
Whether the wads are made of cardboard, or water soluble gloop. The cases, of plastic, well this was quite a few years ago, I wasn't happy at the practice of burning them once we'd filled up an old oil drum, then burying the leftovers. Turned out that the farmer already had a contract in place to deal with his single use plastic (for haylage and silage), just had to ask for some more bags to put the empty cases into then we were assured that they got recycled into e.g park benches, walkways, etc.
To summarise, my objection is to lead, and plastic wads that don't decompose right away.
I have no particular fondness for "fibre" unless that is explained and justified, nor do I object to plastic cases, providing that they enter a recycling chain, which is not difficult, rather than just being strewn around the countryside by those too lazy to pick up.
Hi 'Sharpie'.. It would indeed be interesting to see how some of those initial iron loads your small enterprise used have faired over time. Whether there has been any moisture ingress and if so what effect this has had on the loads, in particualr, on the soft iron shot!?.. Please do investigate and come back to us if you still have the inclination. There are many among us herein that would have an interest in how these so-called "Steel" loads fair over time in storage... And I don't imagine for one minute that you let the storage facilities degenerate in any way, so it would give us a good indication of the keep-ability of these cartridges and their "steel" contents.
I am a little surprised at you stating categorically that "steel" (soft iron) shot loads will definitely NOT damage the internals of any shotgun bore even if not given the surrounds of a buffer type cup material, be that plastic or card etc. etc... Even those companies manufacturing "steel" shot all openly warn about this, and especially the possibility for damage to the older guns like those constructed using Damascus Steel say! Surely rubbing something made out of iron under high pressures (11 tons per square inch or so I think??) at high speeds of around 1100->1600fps approx, will most certainly score the surface of the tube walls launching said over time?? I find it hard to believe otherwise 'Sharpie'...
ATB ..... and shoot safely
I am a little surprised at you stating categorically that "steel" (soft iron) shot loads will definitely NOT damage the internals of any shotgun bore even if not given the surrounds of a buffer type cup material, be that plastic or card etc. etc... Even those companies manufacturing "steel" shot all openly warn about this, and especially the possibility for damage to the older guns like those constructed using Damascus Steel say! Surely rubbing something made out of iron under high pressures (11 tons per square inch or so I think??) at high speeds of around 1100->1600fps approx, will most certainly score the surface of the tube walls launching said over time?? I find it hard to believe otherwise 'Sharpie'...
ATB ..... and shoot safely
I too cannot see why 'Guns' cannot use steel shot - in appropriately constructed shotguns - for clay busting. Given the ranges used at most of the grounds I have visited I see no need for the extra energy carriage abilities of lead shot, and anyways, those clay birds are so fragile it takes but a few strikes with ANY pellets of ANY construction to break them, be that lead, steel, or other non-toxic (expensive) shot loads.
Also, with a small additional charge surely the Clay Grounds could employ grounds persons who could pick up on the wads. In those situations plastic wads would actually be of benefit, being easily spotted - especially if made from a brightly coloured plastic material as you did suggest I think ' '
However, when it comes to shooting game I would rather keep with a lead shot charge for its better ballistic properties, both external AND internal.. There are already complete bans on lead use over any wetland and that is as it is and makes sense to keep enforcing and abiding with to protect the wild birds from lead poisoning. But on walk-up days and the like, where the ranges tend to be extended at times, give me lead every time. And the concentrations of said over land won't be that significant given the limited numbers of people allowed versus the acreage of those places where such old fashioned "hunting" is still continued ?
One really good thing that I like with steel shot loads is the shot density and average spread cos of the near complete lack of shot damage during the firing cycle. Patters really are better, of that there is little doubt. I have seen that on patterning boards with my own gun.
ATB ..... and shoot safely
Also, with a small additional charge surely the Clay Grounds could employ grounds persons who could pick up on the wads. In those situations plastic wads would actually be of benefit, being easily spotted - especially if made from a brightly coloured plastic material as you did suggest I think ' '
However, when it comes to shooting game I would rather keep with a lead shot charge for its better ballistic properties, both external AND internal.. There are already complete bans on lead use over any wetland and that is as it is and makes sense to keep enforcing and abiding with to protect the wild birds from lead poisoning. But on walk-up days and the like, where the ranges tend to be extended at times, give me lead every time. And the concentrations of said over land won't be that significant given the limited numbers of people allowed versus the acreage of those places where such old fashioned "hunting" is still continued ?
One really good thing that I like with steel shot loads is the shot density and average spread cos of the near complete lack of shot damage during the firing cycle. Patters really are better, of that there is little doubt. I have seen that on patterning boards with my own gun.
ATB ..... and shoot safely
Essexsussex
Well-Known Member
Thanks everyone for this - there is some really interesting experiences coming to light now we are all talking
paul o'
Well-Known Member
I seem to remember back in the day that Remington made a Duplex load in steel shot , i'v have one some place I think in the collection they had a wad driver and a hard card cross shot separator as the had mixed shot held in each segment . think They may still do them the USA guys may shed some light on them better I know that Tim Hannams used to stock them as thats all Tim would use .
I've had a look and they are all fine. Having a transparent case means that I can look in through the crimp and see the shot, I don't think that they make them like that nowadays. You don't get to look inside AFAIK.
But none of them have gone rusty, nor would I expect that in sensible storage, but not everyone is sensible, are they, and maybe rather than dusting clays they are also using big loads of large iron shot in wet, maybe salty, environments, perhaps with some hygroscopic water soluble "bio" wad (ooh no, don't use the "plastic" word, it is all green, eco, leaves no trace, it is a plant food and fertiliser, you could dissolve one in a cup of tea and sip it down, might even do you good, etc.)
I'd rather trust to cardboard thank you. For now. Not some potentially soggy lump of "absolutely not plastic" that potentially not only starts deteriorating from the day it is made, but also has the potential to suck in moisture and degrade the powder even primer, as well.
Interestingly at some point Gamebore started using the cardboard full shot cups, I've now realised, after having a look. So they have been in use for quite a few years now in "Super Steel". The first ones we had were not fully enclosed in cardboard (sorry, lets call that "fibre", but really it's cardboard, not traditional felted materials made from e.g. sheeps' wool.)
We were told that we could bung them up any gun, any nitro proof, as long as the chokes were half or less. So that's what we did. And they didn't appear to do any damage. But neither did they perform like lead with plaswads. Just different, we got used to them. Until they stopped making them for a while. But now they are back on the menu in various variations.
Problem (at the moment) is that since in UK and EU we have such a motley collection of old guns, cartridge manufacturer's daren't or are not legally allowed to push the performance of non-toxic loads to the extent that is possible in say the USA. Gun proof USA ? Strange idea. If it blows up it's the manufacturer's fault, and liability. So they make sure that they do not.
However some EU manufacturers are well on top of this and are making guns that are at least as strong and good and finer built than anything from elsewhere. It's just that we can't yet buy the cartridges for them that could properly exploit their potential.
A fact that many people miss is the wad cup that holds the steel shot needs to have a *very* good fit to the inner wall of the shotshell for your loads to have any sort of performance, if you are happy to shoot a blunderbuss then no worries, just don't expect to hit anything high and fast or further than 50m away.
So far I have not seen a wad cup that offers a better fit than plastic ones do now.
To the thread starter, correct load compression and proper crimp on the shell is 90% of the trick. The other 10% is looking up the loads and finding the right components (don't get me started on 209 primers!)
So far I have not seen a wad cup that offers a better fit than plastic ones do now.
To the thread starter, correct load compression and proper crimp on the shell is 90% of the trick. The other 10% is looking up the loads and finding the right components (don't get me started on 209 primers!)
Essexsussex
Well-Known Member
Thanks caberslash.
Heym SR20
Well-Known Member
I have a motley collection of old guns that I enjoy shooting. I understand their limitations and shoot accordingly.
But for wildfowling i use a modern Franchi semiauto with high speed steel cartridges and it does the job. Would i put such cartridges through a paper thin 100 year old game gun. Nope, but then i would nt put an alphamax or magnum cartridge through it either. Although there are some that will and go on to be nominated for a Darwin Award.
But for wildfowling i use a modern Franchi semiauto with high speed steel cartridges and it does the job. Would i put such cartridges through a paper thin 100 year old game gun. Nope, but then i would nt put an alphamax or magnum cartridge through it either. Although there are some that will and go on to be nominated for a Darwin Award.
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