Rewilding

[wildfowler.250]

Folks where has all this rewilding rubbish come from? I can get that folk want to plant more trees - sure. But the wolves and lynx brigade seems to be a combination of folk who are 1) anti hunting and 2) want to turn the highlands into a zoo.


Surely these discussions should be 1) science based and 2) decided between locals and farmers who will be most affected.

Ignoring the fact that the biggest deer issues are fallow down south and suburban roe - none of which likely in the proposed wolf catchment area


Thoughts? Is it Facebook warriors that’s now dictating how we manage wildlife..

 

[Mike1979]

Nonsense ...that's my thought.

If the UK was a big area (which it most certainly isnt compared to most places where rewilding would work) fair enough..but given its small and theres livestock almost everywhere why would predators just go for the animals (such as deer) which are causing the issues? They will go for the easiest food source and that will be the stupid wooly things in a fenced area.

Perhaps releasing wolves in an urban setting would help with population control...but human rather then deer ...please dont take this as a sensible suggestion...just being flippant.

 

[VSS]

The concept is fine. More wild places is a good thing. As hunters, we stand to gain by that.
Rewilding, or simply "wilding" to use a more sensible term, is (or should be) a completely separate debate from species introductions / reintroductions. Unfortunately, the two have become inextricably intertwangled in peoples' minds to the extent that it's difficult to have a sensible conversation about one without the other.

 

[Rasputin]

Too many lefty dogooders funded by the tax payers and “think tanks” is the cause of this drivel. It was commercially driven it would have been ended in two meetings flat.

 

[greylag]

The UK has changed a bit since the last Lynx, wolf or bison lived here,

 

[splash]

Rewilding definitions:-

Council :-
don’t do any maintenance but put up signs stating bee friendly ( Nottingham central reservations busy of duel carriage ways ! I kid you not bee keepers know how high honey bees fly and it’s usually below the height of an HGV )
Wildlife organisations :-
try to live in another century plus build a large eco structure that houses a conference centre and coffee shop. And apply snd get grants for everything under the sun ( kill things that you don’t like on the site but don’t disclose to your starry eyed benefactors
Traditional shooting estate:-
Keep nature in tip top condition while maintaining the predators , in wanted invasion fauna and vermin to a suitable level

 

[Mungo]

The concept is fine. More wild places is a good thing. As hunters, we stand to gain by that.
Rewilding, or simply "wilding" to use a more sensible term, is (or should be) a completely separate debate from species introductions / reintroductions. Unfortunately, the two have become inextricably intertwangled in peoples' minds to the extent that it's difficult to have a sensible conversation about one without the other.

Or just call it what it’s been called for over 150 years - restoration ecology.

As with so much else, an entirely sensible and rather mundane process that should be a standard part of managing any landscape has been hijacked by extremists at either end.

 

[Mungo]

Folks where has all this rewilding rubbish come from? I can get that folk want to plant more trees - sure. But the wolves and lynx brigade seems to be a combination of folk who are 1) anti hunting and 2) want to turn the highlands into a zoo.


Surely these discussions should be 1) science based and 2) decided between locals and farmers who will be most affected.

Ignoring the fact that the biggest deer issues are fallow down south and suburban roe - none of which likely in the proposed wolf catchment area


Thoughts? Is it Facebook warriors that’s now dictating how we manage wildlife..

Call it by its real name (restoration ecology) and step away from the hysteria at either end of the spectrum, and there’s really nothing to get upset about.

 

[Reloader708]

Like all things its a spectrum, taken at its extreme id much rather a heap of bears dumped into the woods than the woods flattering for a new shopping center.
Something in the middle seems to be the way forward, our natural places are seriously degraded and anything we do as lovers of the outdoors could be classed as rewilding.

I made an effort to pick all this s#@t of the riverbank...rewilding? I'd say so. Incidentally someone had taken a crap there too.
We truly are a disgusting species!
I tend to fall in favour of more wild spaces with wild things in them and less housing estates full of folk who do this.

 

[MAH]

where has all this rewilding rubbish come from? I can get that folk want to plant more trees -

It's big business.
Big carbon based companies buy " carbon offset" from companies acting trees, deer and cleared off the site to allow young trees to grow.

Nothing about rewinding it's big business managing the landscape to maximise there profits.

There are parallels with the Highland Clearance, this time it's deer, not people.

 

[VSS]

Too many lefty dogooders funded by the tax payers and “think tanks” is the cause of this drivel. It was commercially driven it would have been ended in two meetings flat.

In many cases it is commercially driven.
See post #10 by @MAH
And the much-quoted Knepp rewilding project was very definitely commercially driven, but not for carbon offsets.

But aside from that, we can all do our own little bit as per post #9 by @Reloader708

 

[John Gryphon]

Incidentally someone had taken a crap there too.

Well if there was a bear there the crap would have been eaten.

 

[wildfowler.250]

Like all things its a spectrum, taken at its extreme id much rather a heap of bears dumped into the woods than the woods flattering for a new shopping center.
Something in the middle seems to be the way forward, our natural places are seriously degraded and anything we do as lovers of the outdoors could be classed as rewilding.
View attachment 407917
I made an effort to pick all this s#@t of the riverbank...rewilding? I'd say so. Incidentally someone had taken a crap there too.
We truly are a disgusting species!
I tend to fall in favour of more wild spaces with wild things in them and less housing estates full of folk who do this.

It's big business.
Big carbon based companies buy " carbon offset" from companies acting trees, deer and cleared off the site to allow young trees to grow.

Nothing about rewinding it's big business managing the landscape to maximise there profits.

There are parallels with the Highland Clearance, this time it's deer, not people.

Cheers folks. Interesting replies on here as always.

Appreciate its big business and I’ve really clumped together trees and reintroductions.


It’s the reintroductions I cannot understand. At the end of the day, this should surely be dictated by scientists and data? Certainly our American hunters are not fond of what the wolves have done to elk numbers in certain areas. And we’re not exactly a country to open up tags if things turn sour.


Interestingly, just back from New Zealand. Not a scrap of litter. Folk in the uk treat the countryside with little respect,(big generalisation there). But even with more wild areas, attitudes won’t change. NZ has traps everywhere for rats/stoats - none smashed up. A nature reserve says no dogs, not a single dog to be seen. Shame the attitudes here aren’t the same

 

[Mungo]

Too many lefty dogooders funded by the tax payers and “think tanks” is the cause of this drivel. It was commercially driven it would have been ended in two meetings flat.

So as a stalker, you’d be happy to see all remaining semi-natural spaces turned over to intensive commercial exploitation?

And you don’t think it’s worth investing anything at all in restoring degraded areas once they’ve finished being used for industry or intensive agriculture?

Rewilding in its basic sense just means taking a bit of land that is no longer being used for intensive commercial purposes and attempting to restore it to a more stable system that has more biodiversity and which offsets the environmental degradation necessarily happening elsewhere. It’s a sensible and ultimately essential tool in any plan for managing land at a large scale.

There are places where the most that any realistic manager can hope for is restoring some of the vegetation and reducing the detritus left behind from previous use - something like a former inner city factory site. There are other places where it’s entirely reasonable to aim for an almost complete recovery of a nearly prehuman ecosystem - though that obviously needs an enormous amount of space and few people.

It’s just very trendy for the shooting community to get its knickers in a twist because they love to erect a lefty straw man and work up a good head of righteous indignation.

 

[VSS]

.

It’s just very trendy for the shooting community to get its knickers in a twist because they love to erect a lefty straw man and work up a good head of righteous indignation.

Nail. On. Head.

 

[kevtherev]

Rewilding has its place yes and I’m all for conservation and wildlife.
But reintroduction of larger predators like wolves and lynx will cause serious problems for farmers and livestock.
Look what’s happening in Europe
Wolves are increasing in numbers even taking pet dogs as well as sheep and cattle.

 

[Mungo]

It’s the reintroductions I cannot understand. At the end of the day, this should surely be dictated by scientists and data?

By and large, they are.

The LEGAL reintroductions have been extremely cautious and data driven. The LEGAL beaver reintroduction in Scotland was designed to be a phased process, starting with a site that was isolated, so they data could be collected on the impacts.

That got totally left behind once the illegal introductions started.

Looking further afield, you mention wolves and elk in North America. The data there are complex. If you take a purely ecological perspective, and ignore the human costs, there is quite good evidence that there is a net positive effect on the ecosystems. That makes sense: these are systems that evolved with predators in place that regulated herbivore populations. In the absence of predators, we need to manage the herbivores. As we see with deer in the UK, we’re not always entirely effective at this, and it’s expensive.

Of course you can’t ignore the human cost: large predators and agriculture don’t mix well. So then the challenge becomes working out how you manage that balance. I don’t think anyone wants to completely eradicate the predators. So once you’ve decided you do want some to survive, you’ve got to accept that some conflict is inevitable, and then set about figuring out how you deal with this.

In the UK, predators are probably unrealistic. However, think about it this way: we are rightly horrified at the absurd amount of money the Scottish government is throwing at deer control. At the same time, much sheep farming is maintained by subsidy. So - you could imagine a situation where you introduce wolves, who do your deer control for free, and simply compensate any livestock loss. It wouldn’t take much to figure out a system that works, if people decided they wanted it to.

 

[angusb1]

It’s just very trendy for the shooting community to get its knickers in a twist because they love to erect a lefty straw man and work up a good head of righteous indignation.

The views and attitude put forward by Peter Cairns in the film The Last Keeper show there's absolutely no need for a lefty straw man, he's the real thing.

 

[MAH]

I’ve really clumped together trees and reintroductions.

They are connected, but my view is:
A. Big business are driving "rewinding " as a cover story for carbon offset project. This is the main event.
B. Reintroduction is a fringe group, who are jumping on the rewinding theme. Big business are happy with the extra noise that demonised deer and the claim that deer are out of control.
I doubt wolf reintroduction will happen, there aren't enough deer to feed them.

M

 

[Mungo]

They are connected, but my view is:
A. Big business are driving "rewinding " as a cover story for carbon offset project. This is the main event.
B. Reintroduction is a fringe group, who are jumping on the rewinding theme. Big business are happy with the extra noise that demonised deer and the claim that deer are out of control.
I doubt wolf reintroduction will happen, there aren't enough deer to feed them.

M

Reintroduction has been around for much longer than the current carbon sequestration tree planting boom.