Rfd to Rfd transfers

[gixer1]

The situation with sales and transfers is explained quite clearly in the FAC in the section titled Guidance for the holder of this certificate
The relevant parts are below:
Guidance to ANYONE who sells, lets on hire or lends firearms or ammunition:
1. YOU must complete each column in Table 1 Firearms or Table 2 Ammunition. i.e. it is the person selling, letting on hire or lending the firearm who completes table 1
5. If YOU are selling a firearm and/or ammunition which will be sent or posted to another dealer for the BUYER to collect in person, YOU should complete the tables and notify the police of the transaction. concerning the firearm. The dealer who actually hands over the firearm should NOT complete the tables or notify the police.
So, if you are buying a firearm in a private sale or from a remote RFD then your certificate has to be completed by the private seller or remote RFD.
To comply with that requirement means sending your FAC to the private seller or RFD selling the firearm - or travelling and doing a face to face transaction.

To be able to collect a firearm from your local RFD and have him complete Table 1 in your FAC requires the firearm to be recorded in the RFDs stock.
For that to happen he has to buy or transfer the firearm from a seller or remote RFD and enter it into his stock
The system as it is set up does not require the RFD to enter the firearm into his stock because the seller should already have notified his local police about the sale and the details of the new owner/keeper

Cheers

Bruce

So once the origin RFD has transferred to the destination RFD….the FAC holder only needs show the FAC when collecting from the destination….nothing in that states you must send your FAC to the origin unless you are dealing directly with them….and you can’t do that anyway as they can’t post a firearm to an FAC holder….so either way it has to go through the destination RFD.

So basically the few locations that request this due to local authorities insisting on this is another unnecessary hoop to jump through.

 

[Liveonce]

So once the origin RFD has transferred to the destination RFD….the FAC holder only needs show the FAC when collecting from the destination….nothing in that states you must send your FAC to the origin unless you are dealing directly with them….and you can’t do that anyway as they can’t post a firearm to an FAC holder….so either way it has to go through the destination RFD.

So basically the few locations that request this due to local authorities insisting on this is another unnecessary hoop to jump through.

I think you are flogging a dead horse, as the process is the seller completes the buyers certificate, that‘s certainly how Kent expect it to be done. The final RFD just ensures a face to face handover to the new owner as required to comply with the firearms act. Nothing stopping the buyer and seller meeting face to face and avoid the services of an RFD.

 

[zanes]

surely its just better to jump in car and drive to wherever the gun is. Give it a really good inspection and then purchase it.

Indeed if you are looking for something specific take time and visit your local gunshops. Chances are they will have what you are looking for on the shelf.

Agreed, I've travelled quite some distance to buy firearms before, I reckon west Cumbria is about the furthest. Two lots of RFD fees buy a fair amount of petrol.

Made a weekend of it with my girlfriend at the time (now wife) when we went to Cumbria which caused some second glances at the RFD

 

[tim@tcs]

Stop making things complicated and follow the rules
I have shipped a rifle to Scotland to an rfd to allow a prospective buyer the opportunity to view it! The risks of having it sent back are no greater than a normal sale!
The dealer sold the rifle in the same way that he would if I had been the wholesaler!
Returned goods are a business risk in every business
Sale or return does happen otherwise some wholesalers would have no business especially the high end items

 

[mealiejimmy]

So once the origin RFD has transferred to the destination RFD….the FAC holder only needs show the FAC when collecting from the destination….nothing in that states you must send your FAC to the origin unless you are dealing directly with them….and you can’t do that anyway as they can’t post a firearm to an FAC holder….so either way it has to go through the destination RFD.

So basically the few locations that request this due to local authorities insisting on this is another unnecessary hoop to jump through.

The destination RFD receives the firearm from the sending RFD and the FAC holder buying the firearm goes to the receiving RFD to collect the firearm.
Thus far you are correct
Where you are wrong is that the receiving RFD will not hand over the firearm to the buyer unless the SELLER has already completed table 1 in the buyers FAC
If the private seller or the RFD selling the firearm is required to complete table 1 on the buyers FAC, how else is that accomplished other than by the buyer sending their FAC to the private seller or selling RFD?
As far as I can see, unless the transaction is face to face, the buyer has no option but to send their FAC to the seller (private or RFD) so that the procedure as specified in the FAC is followed correctly.
Your statement "the few locations that request this" is wrong - it's not a request - it's a requirement specified in an FAC and it has been so for many years.
The BASC leaflet linked to above which explains the procedure was issued in 2014

Cheers

Bruce

 

[gixer1]

The destination RFD receives the firearm from the sending RFD and the FAC holder buying the firearm goes to the receiving RFD to collect the firearm.
Thus far you are correct
Where you are wrong is that the receiving RFD will not hand over the firearm to the buyer unless the SELLER has already completed table 1 in the buyers FAC
If the private seller or the RFD selling the firearm is required to complete table 1 on the buyers FAC, how else is that accomplished other than by the buyer sending their FAC to the private seller or selling RFD?
As far as I can see, unless the transaction is face to face, the buyer has no option but to send their FAC to the seller (private or RFD) so that the procedure as specified in the FAC is followed correctly.
Your statement "the few locations that request this" is wrong - it's not a request - it's a requirement specified in an FAC and it has been so for many years.
The BASC leaflet linked to above which explains the procedure was issued in 2014

Cheers

Bruce

Had it happen once, in about 25 firearms….and that was from countryman’s of derby….where the police force require them to do this….

 

[mealiejimmy]

Just because you only had to follow the correct procedure once, doesn't make the procedure wrong.

Cheers

Bruce

 

[243ack]

I would not have wanted to be with some of you chaps in the trenches.

 

[pirtoo]

for you second situation, When RFD Y buyers from the seller are they now adding their profit? who pay the courier fees and RFD Y (seller) is now responsible under the sales of goods act if the gun is faulty, and what happens if B decided not to buy the gun?

The current process is as it is for many reasons.

It is organised however the RFD and the buyer arrange it to be. People are (usually) grownups and can agree on things if they want to.
I didn't say everyone would want to do it that way just that it is an option, if you don't like it then don't do it.

Distance buying has risks however you organise it.

 

[gixer1]

Just because you only had to follow the correct procedure once, doesn't make the procedure wrong.

Cheers

Bruce

Yet the overwhelming experience of most (and the reason the thread was started) is that you don’t need to post your FAC away, you produce it to the RFD locally….how one person interprets the law is not necessarily correct.

Regards,
Gixer

 

[pirtoo]

Yet the overwhelming experience of most (and the reason the thread was started) is that you don’t need to post your FAC away, you produce it to the RFD locally….how one person interprets the law is not necessarily correct.

It isn't how one person interprets the law. It's how it is written in law, it is how it is written in the guidance to the law, how BASC explain it should be legally done (and have done since at least 2014), how the police forces explain it should be done, etc. I'm the first one to push back against an FEO saying that things are in law when they are not but this *is* in the law. Some people think it is confusing because of the mention of "sell or transfer" but in the context of transfer as it is used in the firearms act this isn't what it means (I am not a lawyer but I doubt you'll find a lawyer who will disagree with me).

Hampshire police, for example, have it in their guidance to RFDs that if they are selling via a transfer to a second RFD the origin, first, RFD must see the buyers FAC and fill it in: https://www.hampshire.police.uk/Sys...ing/hampshire/rfd_guidance_booklet_a5_opt.pdf

This isn't a question. It has been enforced this way for many years. That some RFDs and FAC holders haven't gotten the memo or don't care is irrelevant to how it legally should be done.

 

[mealiejimmy]

To correctly follow the procedures set out clearly in your FAC, it is necessary to send your FAC to a remote seller for them to complete table 1 in your certificate
There is no "interpretation" here - the procedure is clearly set out in your FAC
If you have a local RFD who signs your FAC rather than the seller when you collect the gun, then he is not following the procedure correctly and risks the wrath of the local firearms department

Cheers

Bruce

 

[gixer1]

It isn't how one person interprets the law. It's how it is written in law, it is how it is written in the guidance to the law, how BASC explain it should be legally done (and have done since at least 2014), how the police forces explain it should be done, etc. I'm the first one to push back against an FEO saying that things are in law when they are not but this *is* in the law. Some people think it is confusing because of the mention of "sell or transfer" but in the context of transfer as it is used in the firearms act this isn't what it means (I am not a lawyer but I doubt you'll find a lawyer who will disagree with me).

Hampshire police, for example, have it in their guidance to RFDs that if they are selling via a transfer to a second RFD the origin, first, RFD must see the buyers FAC and fill it in: https://www.hampshire.police.uk/Sys...ing/hampshire/rfd_guidance_booklet_a5_opt.pdf

This isn't a question. It has been enforced this way for many years. That some RFDs and FAC holders haven't gotten the memo or don't care is irrelevant to how it legally should be done.

It clearly is a question - as many don’t see it that way…and many, many RFD’s are happy to hand over a firearm that has been transferred to them from another RFD yet the origin RFD has never seen the buyers FAC - I see no issue with this as at no point is the firearm handled or issued to someone who isn’t permitted to do so.

Why would we need to send a controlled document (FAC) around the country unnecessarily?? It’s just nonsense.

Regards,
Gixer

 

[gixer1]

To correctly follow the procedures set out clearly in your FAC, it is necessary to send your FAC to a remote seller for them to complete table 1 in your certificate
There is no "interpretation" here - the procedure is clearly set out in your FAC
If you have a local RFD who signs your FAC rather than the seller when you collect the gun, then he is not following the procedure correctly and risks the wrath of the local firearms department

Cheers

Bruce

In your opinion Bruce….as I say - at no point is the firearm out with legal controls and why have a network of RFD’s with numbers of this was not legal?

You could argue the point there may be a difficult situation of the forearm is not as described and the FAC holder rejects it - but even then the forearm is just sent back to origin by the receiving RFD.

 

[pirtoo]

It clearly is a question - as many don’t see it that way…and many, many RFD’s are happy to hand over a firearm that has been transferred to them from another RFD yet the origin RFD has never seen the buyers FAC - I see no issue with this as at no point is the firearm handled or issued to someone who isn’t permitted to do so.

Why would we need to send a controlled document (FAC) around the country unnecessarily?? It’s just nonsense.

because that's the law. You can have that argument with the police if you want but it doesn't change anything.

 

[gixer1]

because that's the law. You can have that argument with the police if you want but it doesn't change anything.

Seems to have been ok so far (and with many others)…and I haven’t hidden any of the purchases from them or kept any secrets…yet…no knocks at the door for illegal arms deals!

 

[pirtoo]

Seems to have been ok so far (and with many others)…and I haven’t hidden any of the purchases from them or kept any secrets…yet…no knocks at the door for illegal arms deals!

Just because it hasn't been noticed so far doesn't mean it won't be in the future. Most forces don't look too closely at who wrote what in but it just takes one review or an FEO actually checking up on something.

I haven't had a remote sale (in either direction) done the old way in many years. Every RFD I've dealt with in the last 7 or so years won't do it the old way because it is not legal. Either I get a local RFD to purchase for me, I send my FAC off to get filled in or I drive to go collect myself. Those are the legal options.

If you want to risk it no one here can stop you but consider how many sources (police forces, guidance to the law, BSAC, etc) are saying one thing consistently and disagreeing with you. You really think you know better on the law than all of them?

 

[gixer1]

Just because it hasn't been noticed so far doesn't mean it won't be in the future. Most forces don't look too closely at who wrote what in but it just takes one review or an FEO actually checking up on something.

I haven't had a remote sale (in either direction) done the old way in many years. Every RFD I've dealt with in the last 7 or so years won't do it the old way because it is not legal. Either I get a local RFD to purchase for me, I send my FAC off to get filled in or I drive to go collect myself. Those are the legal options.

If you want to risk it no one here can stop you but consider how many sources (police forces, guidance to the law, BSAC, etc) are saying one thing consistently and disagreeing with you. You really think you know better on the law than all of them?

As I said - I’m at renewal number 5 so it seems they don’t worry that much…and as I said -
I think it’s how you vs I interpret what it says.

If it was to go to court I see nothing in the process that means the firearm is handled by someone that shouldn’t be handling it, and there is a paper trail from origin to destination and FAC holder.

But on that note - I’m out.

 

[243ack]

FFS - how many more dead horses can you chaps flog. Do something constructive FFS.

 

[Liveonce]

possibly more to it than just the firearms act, but also sales of goods act? Vat?

I am just pleased that some RFDs are happy to do the process as not all will, make it difficult for them and they may all stop doing it. After all must be more profit in selling a gun then just receiving it and handing it over.