RS 62 vs RS60

gixer1

Well-Known Member
I’ve recently run up some loads with RS62 and still not quite at the velocities I was trying to hit (around 2850fps) for a 6.5CM with 24” barrel.

I’m loading 123gr fox copper, and 120gr and 140gr Sierra SP’s.

the 120’s and 140’s of can load up a little more as there is room however the fox 123gr I’m hearing some significant crunching and compressing the charge when seating. @malmick kindly ran the fox load through GRT and it’s showing I’m way up there in case fill as I’ll most likely need 43.5gr of RS62 to hit the 2850fps which is 100.1% case cap.

With the above in mind would I be better switching to RS60? Is RS60 the same as RS62 in that it’s between single and double base?? (I believe it’s like an I between in the case of RS62)

any input appreciated.

Regards,
Gixer
 
RS62 is a low energy powder compared to RS60 or RS52 so doesn't give tip top high velocities even when close to maximum case fill. But in return I find I get milder recoil and less wear on the barrel. If your scope has enough vertical elevation to dial a few more clicks to compensate for the slightly lower velocities of the RS62 powder, then your bullets will still hit the target. Is there some specific reason for needing 2850fps as opposed to 2800fps or whatever muzzle velocity it is that the RS62 will produce?
 
I should have added - how much difference in barrel life would it be realistically? Has anyone tested it and come up with any real world results?

regards,
Gixee
 
RS62 is a low energy powder compared to RS60 or RS52 so doesn't give tip top high velocities even when close to maximum case fill. But in return I find I get milder recoil and less wear on the barrel. If your scope has enough vertical elevation to dial a few more clicks to compensate for the slightly lower velocities of the RS62 powder, then your bullets will still hit the target. Is there some specific reason for needing 2850fps as opposed to 2800fps or whatever muzzle velocity it is that the RS62 will produce?
Hi HandB,

the main reason I was chasing the 2850fps was the info given on velocities for proper expansion with the fox rounds. I would love to just stick around the slower velocities as a number of the groups are accurate but I’m concerned they don’t perform as well expansion wise.

regards,
Gixer
 
Hi HandB,

the main reason I was chasing the 2850fps was the info given on velocities for proper expansion with the fox rounds. I would love to just stick around the slower velocities as a number of the groups are accurate but I’m concerned they don’t perform as well expansion wise.

regards,
Gixer
Maybe get some pliable material (e.g., lumps of clay) and shoot them at likely target ranges and then recover the bullets to check if they expand?
 
I use Rs52, which I understand is the “enhanced“ version of rs50, rather confusingly I believe that Rs60 is the enhanced version of rs62, ie the other way around.
So my understanding, if your already using rs62 then going to Rs60 would be the next step. You should be able to get the same velocity your currently achieving with Rs60 with less powder. It’s certainly worth a try.
Im sure you’ve heard all of the comments about enhanced powders and barrel/ throat erosion etc. As long as your not pushing it, or shooting long strings of shots, it shouldn’t be a problem.
 
With the above in mind would I be better switching to RS60? Is RS60 the same as RS62 in that it’s between single and double base?? (I believe it’s like an I between in the case of RS62)

Reload Swiss powders come in two forms. There is conventional single-based tubular (eg RS50 and 62). Then there are 'high-energy' grades, all of which also have the unique 'EI' enhancement. 'High-energy' powders take a standard single-base type and late in the production process infuse the granules with nitroglycerin. If you're an energetics chemist this is technically different to 'double-based' which as the term suggests sees plain nitrocellulose and nitroglycerin mixed together in paste forms early on to provide a double-base material that is then rolled, extruded or whatever. From the user's point of view, there is no difference between 'high-energy' and 'double-based' - they both contain nitroglycerin. A high-energy type with say 15% nitroglycerin content by weight will outperform a double-based type with 5%, but also increase barrel wear.

'High-energy' powders aren't new in the UK. All Viht N500s are of this genre. In fact Nitrochemie Wimmins A.G., the RS manufacturer, developed the process and sold it to Vihtavuori Oy many years ago.

What is new with all Nitrochemie high-energy grades, and is unique to them, is the 'EI' infused deterrents technology. Deterrents are the chemicals used to change initial burn, normally slowing it, to keep pressures in check. Traditionally, they are surface coated, and whilst they work very well, it's a one-off and very short-lasting effect. 'EI' powders have infused deterrents inside the granules and their effect is longer lasting. This means that if you look at the pressure - time / bullet movement graph, the initial peak pressure shortly after ignition and as the bullet just gets underway is extended - ie lasts longer and for a greater length of bullet travel.

As it is total and not peak pressure that governs MV, ie the area under the pressure-time curve, this gives higher MVs, within any pressure ceiling. That's the RS 'EI' upside. However, it also extends the area of throat / leade / rifled barrel that is exposed to peak pressure and temperature gas, and also extends the time-duration of those destructive conditions. It's the pressure/temperature extent and time duration that wears barrels out - literally washes the steel away at the molecular level and changes the metal grain structure.

The 'EI' bit is the revolutionary change in these powders. RS60 / Alliant Re17 provides startling MV increases in some catridges, eg 6XC and 284 Win with + 150-200 fps MV with heavy bullets, and most of that comes from 'EI', not high-energy. (Compare Viht N140 with 540, N160 with 560 etc MV changes - they're nothing like as great.)

How much additional barrel wear do they incur? That's very difficult to answer as it depends on loadings/pressure-attained and rifle usage. In the worst scenario - US F-Class and Benchrest competition and prairie varmint shooting employing absolute maximum loads and shooting in high ambient temperatures using 'string shooting', barrel heating was extreme with barrel life cut in half or by even more compared to 'hot' loads of Hodgdon equivalents like H4350 and H4831sc. In UK F-Class where we shoot with heavy jackets on in mid summer sometimes and we pair-shoot (ie two competitors alternatively on one target), many people have used RS60 in 284 Win for example with perfectively reasonable barrel lives. Crucially though, they do not load fully up to what the powder allows and take a modest performance enhancement. Increase 284 Win MVs with 180gn bullets from the usual 2,830 fps or thereabouts to the next node in the mid to high 2,800s and you're OK; push MVs way up in the 2,900s towards 3,000 (which RS60 will allow) and the barrel is soon toast. So, if full performance enhancements aren't taken and the number of rounds fired is both low and at a slow rate of fire as in most UK field shooting, additional barrel wear will either be marginal, or at any rate not so extreme as to be an issue. I wore a stainless match barrel in 6XC out in just under 1,000 rounds - acceptable for BR which it was used for, less so for F-Class which involves higher round counts. Crucially, Re17 (this was pre-RS days) took me to an MV level that was essential ballistically / competitively and which Viht N550 couldn't achieve without producing excessive pressure. 6XC is supposed to have a 2,000 round stainless barrel life, but for this type of competition will be much less, so realistically barrel life was reduced by somewhere between a quarter and half. But that's guesstimate!

With the uber-heavy bullets now being made and increasingly used and propellant improvements, people do have to consider barrel life much more, especially with rebarreling with (softer) stainless steel products far more common nowadays. People really need to think carefully about regular range days with quite rapid fire (especially with electronic targets coming into use) and high round counts. Many of today's common or garden cartridges have much higher capacity to bore area ratios than 223/308 and we're not shooting surplus 7.62 Nato with 145gn bullets at 57,000 psi pressures at large targets anymore through very hard hammer-forged chrome-moly barrels. With 2-3,000 round barrel lives and the best part of £1,000 to rebarrel, the barrel cost per shot is no longer insignificant. Great fun to put 100 rounds down Stickledown in a day in non-competitive shooting, but round-counts soon mount and the barrel stops performing long before you expect! Also, C-M barrels + 7.62 + light bullets eventually saw heavy but gradually incurred throat / leade wear. The low rate of wear + hard metal kept worn barrel surfaces smooth. Pressures / MVs dropped, but barrels continued to group adequately well past their replacement points. Stainless + high temperatures / rapid wear produces anything but smooth surfaces ahead of the chamber. As a result, today's much higher intensity cartridges and propellants, heavier bullets +stainless sees performance drop off a cliff over a few rounds, sometimes between two consecutive rounds if a chunk of rifling land breaks off and leaves a 'pot-hole'.
 
Reload Swiss powders come in two forms. There is conventional single-based tubular (eg RS50 and 62). Then there are 'high-energy' grades, all of which also have the unique 'EI' enhancement. 'High-energy' powders take a standard single-base type and late in the production process infuse the granules with nitroglycerin. If you're an energetics chemist this is technically different to 'double-based' which as the term suggests sees plain nitrocellulose and nitroglycerin mixed together in paste forms early on to provide a double-base material that is then rolled, extruded or whatever. From the user's point of view, there is no difference between 'high-energy' and 'double-based' - they both contain nitroglycerin. A high-energy type with say 15% nitroglycerin content by weight will outperform a double-based type with 5%, but also increase barrel wear.

'High-energy' powders aren't new in the UK. All Viht N500s are of this genre. In fact Nitrochemie Wimmins A.G., the RS manufacturer, developed the process and sold it to Vihtavuori Oy many years ago.

What is new with all Nitrochemie high-energy grades, and is unique to them, is the 'EI' infused deterrents technology. Deterrents are the chemicals used to change initial burn, normally slowing it, to keep pressures in check. Traditionally, they are surface coated, and whilst they work very well, it's a one-off and very short-lasting effect. 'EI' powders have infused deterrents inside the granules and their effect is longer lasting. This means that if you look at the pressure - time / bullet movement graph, the initial peak pressure shortly after ignition and as the bullet just gets underway is extended - ie lasts longer and for a greater length of bullet travel.

As it is total and not peak pressure that governs MV, ie the area under the pressure-time curve, this gives higher MVs, within any pressure ceiling. That's the RS 'EI' upside. However, it also extends the area of throat / leade / rifled barrel that is exposed to peak pressure and temperature gas, and also extends the time-duration of those destructive conditions. It's the pressure/temperature extent and time duration that wears barrels out - literally washes the steel away at the molecular level and changes the metal grain structure.

The 'EI' bit is the revolutionary change in these powders. RS60 / Alliant Re17 provides startling MV increases in some catridges, eg 6XC and 284 Win with + 150-200 fps MV with heavy bullets, and most of that comes from 'EI', not high-energy. (Compare Viht N140 with 540, N160 with 560 etc MV changes - they're nothing like as great.)

How much additional barrel wear do they incur? That's very difficult to answer as it depends on loadings/pressure-attained and rifle usage. In the worst scenario - US F-Class and Benchrest competition and prairie varmint shooting employing absolute maximum loads and shooting in high ambient temperatures using 'string shooting', barrel heating was extreme with barrel life cut in half or by even more compared to 'hot' loads of Hodgdon equivalents like H4350 and H4831sc. In UK F-Class where we shoot with heavy jackets on in mid summer sometimes and we pair-shoot (ie two competitors alternatively on one target), many people have used RS60 in 284 Win for example with perfectively reasonable barrel lives. Crucially though, they do not load fully up to what the powder allows and take a modest performance enhancement. Increase 284 Win MVs with 180gn bullets from the usual 2,830 fps or thereabouts to the next node in the mid to high 2,800s and you're OK; push MVs way up in the 2,900s towards 3,000 (which RS60 will allow) and the barrel is soon toast. So, if full performance enhancements aren't taken and the number of rounds fired is both low and at a slow rate of fire as in most UK field shooting, additional barrel wear will either be marginal, or at any rate not so extreme as to be an issue. I wore a stainless match barrel in 6XC out in just under 1,000 rounds - acceptable for BR which it was used for, less so for F-Class which involves higher round counts. Crucially, Re17 (this was pre-RS days) took me to an MV level that was essential ballistically / competitively and which Viht N550 couldn't achieve without producing excessive pressure. 6XC is supposed to have a 2,000 round stainless barrel life, but for this type of competition will be much less, so realistically barrel life was reduced by somewhere between a quarter and half. But that's guesstimate!

With the uber-heavy bullets now being made and increasingly used and propellant improvements, people do have to consider barrel life much more, especially with rebarreling with (softer) stainless steel products far more common nowadays. People really need to think carefully about regular range days with quite rapid fire (especially with electronic targets coming into use) and high round counts. Many of today's common or garden cartridges have much higher capacity to bore area ratios than 223/308 and we're not shooting surplus 7.62 Nato with 145gn bullets at 57,000 psi pressures at large targets anymore through very hard hammer-forged chrome-moly barrels. With 2-3,000 round barrel lives and the best part of £1,000 to rebarrel, the barrel cost per shot is no longer insignificant. Great fun to put 100 rounds down Stickledown in a day in non-competitive shooting, but round-counts soon mount and the barrel stops performing long before you expect! Also, C-M barrels + 7.62 + light bullets eventually saw heavy but gradually incurred throat / leade wear. The low rate of wear + hard metal kept worn barrel surfaces smooth. Pressures / MVs dropped, but barrels continued to group adequately well past their replacement points. Stainless + high temperatures / rapid wear produces anything but smooth surfaces ahead of the chamber. As a result, today's much higher intensity cartridges and propellants, heavier bullets +stainless sees performance drop off a cliff over a few rounds, sometimes between two consecutive rounds if a chunk of rifling land breaks off and leaves a 'pot-hole'.
Wow.

David.
 
I’ve recently run up some loads with RS62 and still not quite at the velocities I was trying to hit (around 2850fps) for a 6.5CM with 24” barrel.

I’m loading 123gr fox copper, and 120gr and 140gr Sierra SP’s.

the 120’s and 140’s of can load up a little more as there is room however the fox 123gr I’m hearing some significant crunching and compressing the charge when seating. @malmick kindly ran the fox load through GRT and it’s showing I’m way up there in case fill as I’ll most likely need 43.5gr of RS62 to hit the 2850fps which is 100.1% case cap.

With the above in mind would I be better switching to RS60? Is RS60 the same as RS62 in that it’s between single and double base?? (I believe it’s like an I between in the case of RS62)

any input appreciated.

Regards,
Gixer
Are you able to get a slight crimp or order a smaller mandrel to give more tension maybe.
I use 62 in mine & performs very accurately
 
I’d give another vote for RS60.

After chasing velocity in my 20” barrel .270 (why, sako, why?) and not getting it I tried RL17 and problem solved.

I have heard it can be hard on barrels, so wouldn’t use it for the range but to get the velocity I wanted for hunting it was just the ticket.
 
Are you able to get a slight crimp or order a smaller mandrel to give more tension maybe.
I use 62 in mine & performs very accurately
What velocities are yo getting RG? Accuracy isn’t the problem - it’s velocity. However I’m going to settle at 2700fps.

regards,
Gixer
 
What velocities are yo getting RG? Accuracy isn’t the problem - it’s velocity. However I’m going to settle at 2700fps.

regards,
Gixer
We were going to chrono last March, mainly as I wanted to Saterlee test to see how that compared against what I have. I'd seen a few posts where people said the accuracy wernt always in the nodes so was curious how mine matched up
 
Reload Swiss powders come in two forms. There is conventional single-based tubular (eg RS50 and 62). Then there are 'high-energy' grades, all of which also have the unique 'EI' enhancement. 'High-energy' powders take a standard single-base type and late in the production process infuse the granules with nitroglycerin. If you're an energetics chemist this is technically different to 'double-based' which as the term suggests sees plain nitrocellulose and nitroglycerin mixed together in paste forms early on to provide a double-base material that is then rolled, extruded or whatever. From the user's point of view, there is no difference between 'high-energy' and 'double-based' - they both contain nitroglycerin. A high-energy type with say 15% nitroglycerin content by weight will outperform a double-based type with 5%, but also increase barrel wear.

'High-energy' powders aren't new in the UK. All Viht N500s are of this genre. In fact Nitrochemie Wimmins A.G., the RS manufacturer, developed the process and sold it to Vihtavuori Oy many years ago.

What is new with all Nitrochemie high-energy grades, and is unique to them, is the 'EI' infused deterrents technology. Deterrents are the chemicals used to change initial burn, normally slowing it, to keep pressures in check. Traditionally, they are surface coated, and whilst they work very well, it's a one-off and very short-lasting effect. 'EI' powders have infused deterrents inside the granules and their effect is longer lasting. This means that if you look at the pressure - time / bullet movement graph, the initial peak pressure shortly after ignition and as the bullet just gets underway is extended - ie lasts longer and for a greater length of bullet travel.

As it is total and not peak pressure that governs MV, ie the area under the pressure-time curve, this gives higher MVs, within any pressure ceiling. That's the RS 'EI' upside. However, it also extends the area of throat / leade / rifled barrel that is exposed to peak pressure and temperature gas, and also extends the time-duration of those destructive conditions. It's the pressure/temperature extent and time duration that wears barrels out - literally washes the steel away at the molecular level and changes the metal grain structure.

The 'EI' bit is the revolutionary change in these powders. RS60 / Alliant Re17 provides startling MV increases in some catridges, eg 6XC and 284 Win with + 150-200 fps MV with heavy bullets, and most of that comes from 'EI', not high-energy. (Compare Viht N140 with 540, N160 with 560 etc MV changes - they're nothing like as great.)

How much additional barrel wear do they incur? That's very difficult to answer as it depends on loadings/pressure-attained and rifle usage. In the worst scenario - US F-Class and Benchrest competition and prairie varmint shooting employing absolute maximum loads and shooting in high ambient temperatures using 'string shooting', barrel heating was extreme with barrel life cut in half or by even more compared to 'hot' loads of Hodgdon equivalents like H4350 and H4831sc. In UK F-Class where we shoot with heavy jackets on in mid summer sometimes and we pair-shoot (ie two competitors alternatively on one target), many people have used RS60 in 284 Win for example with perfectively reasonable barrel lives. Crucially though, they do not load fully up to what the powder allows and take a modest performance enhancement. Increase 284 Win MVs with 180gn bullets from the usual 2,830 fps or thereabouts to the next node in the mid to high 2,800s and you're OK; push MVs way up in the 2,900s towards 3,000 (which RS60 will allow) and the barrel is soon toast. So, if full performance enhancements aren't taken and the number of rounds fired is both low and at a slow rate of fire as in most UK field shooting, additional barrel wear will either be marginal, or at any rate not so extreme as to be an issue. I wore a stainless match barrel in 6XC out in just under 1,000 rounds - acceptable for BR which it was used for, less so for F-Class which involves higher round counts. Crucially, Re17 (this was pre-RS days) took me to an MV level that was essential ballistically / competitively and which Viht N550 couldn't achieve without producing excessive pressure. 6XC is supposed to have a 2,000 round stainless barrel life, but for this type of competition will be much less, so realistically barrel life was reduced by somewhere between a quarter and half. But that's guesstimate!

With the uber-heavy bullets now being made and increasingly used and propellant improvements, people do have to consider barrel life much more, especially with rebarreling with (softer) stainless steel products far more common nowadays. People really need to think carefully about regular range days with quite rapid fire (especially with electronic targets coming into use) and high round counts. Many of today's common or garden cartridges have much higher capacity to bore area ratios than 223/308 and we're not shooting surplus 7.62 Nato with 145gn bullets at 57,000 psi pressures at large targets anymore through very hard hammer-forged chrome-moly barrels. With 2-3,000 round barrel lives and the best part of £1,000 to rebarrel, the barrel cost per shot is no longer insignificant. Great fun to put 100 rounds down Stickledown in a day in non-competitive shooting, but round-counts soon mount and the barrel stops performing long before you expect! Also, C-M barrels + 7.62 + light bullets eventually saw heavy but gradually incurred throat / leade wear. The low rate of wear + hard metal kept worn barrel surfaces smooth. Pressures / MVs dropped, but barrels continued to group adequately well past their replacement points. Stainless + high temperatures / rapid wear produces anything but smooth surfaces ahead of the chamber. As a result, today's much higher intensity cartridges and propellants, heavier bullets +stainless sees performance drop off a cliff over a few rounds, sometimes between two consecutive rounds if a chunk of rifling land breaks off and leaves a 'pot-hole'.
Great post Laurie. Endorse everything you say. As a Match Rifleman (for those not familiar with that discipline, basically halfway between TR and F-class, using a .308, a scope and supportive handrest), our go-to powder is RS60 behind a 215gr bullet. We will drive them at or around 2800fps, which many find incredible, but much of that is down to the RS60, and small primer Lapua cases, which allow us to achive greater velocities with only a marginal increase in pressure. Those metrics supersede the old "recipe", which was N550 behind a Sierra 200gr, at a MV of c.2750fps, roughly 50fps slower. Better BC's of heavier bullets, plus higher velocity = better performance at 1000yds+ and the ability to stay above the transonic point at 1200yds. We would generally expect to get between 1500-2000 rounds out of a stainless 32/34 inch Krieger barrel, although some barrels will go slightly further if their use has been gentle - i.e. no heavy shot strings, just basic, reasonably-paced, two/three-to-a-target competitive shooting. I have two barrels running at the moment, one on its last legs after 2000+ rounds, and one new one, both chambered .308 with the same reamer. The throat erosion is c. 65thou, which in handloading terms is not insignificant.
 
That is incredible, over 3,700 ft/lbs from a .308? That's max load territory for a .300WM from my Hornady handbook. I'm not doubting you but I am somewhat amazed.

Presumably that's down to the (very) long barrel? I'm sure most .308's would explode long before they got a 215gr to that velocity.
 
Thanks Laurie, much appreciated! Sounds like RS60 may be worth a try for me as I won’t be pushing much higher MV wise.

regards,
Gixer
In a similar cartridge (.260 Rem) I am getting ~2800fps with a 142gr ABLR and RS60. I have no experience with the fox copper but the powder does exceptionally well in my rifle.
 
That is incredible, over 3,700 ft/lbs from a .308? That's max load territory for a .300WM from my Hornady handbook. I'm not doubting you but I am somewhat amazed.

Presumably that's down to the (very) long barrel? I'm sure most .308's would explode long before they got a 215gr to that velocity.
Quite probably - 32/34 inch is our standard barrel length in our discipline, and has been for 2 decades, and barrels are heavy - up to 2.5kgs. We have worked the loads up gently and had them working consistently for some 5-7 years now. Small primer Lapua palmer cases made a difference when they were introduced, and moly-ed bullets are used for the most part too. NB I wouldn't advise chasing what we do with anything other than a highly specialised set-up, put together by a gunsmith who really knows what he is doing (which the ones we use do). What I described is not for ordinary stalking rifle reloading purposes, but just to illustrate / confirm some of the powder data that Laurie was mentioning. NB we are classed as High Muzzle Energy (HME) for NRA/MoD purposes, which means that we do additional safety checks every time we use the ranges.
 
I’ve recently run up some loads with RS62 and still not quite at the velocities I was trying to hit (around 2850fps) for a 6.5CM with 24” barrel.

I’m loading 123gr fox copper, and 120gr and 140gr Sierra SP’s.

the 120’s and 140’s of can load up a little more as there is room however the fox 123gr I’m hearing some significant crunching and compressing the charge when seating. @malmick kindly ran the fox load through GRT and it’s showing I’m way up there in case fill as I’ll most likely need 43.5gr of RS62 to hit the 2850fps which is 100.1% case cap.

With the above in mind would I be better switching to RS60? Is RS60 the same as RS62 in that it’s between single and double base?? (I believe it’s like an I between in the case of RS62)

any input appreciated.

Regards,
Gixer
RS60/RL17 same thing & double base. I stick to RS62 & go for accuracy/group over speed every time! 👍
 
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