Scotland

[6pointer]

Are we in Scotland to hungry do we shoot to many deer with out thinking of what might be. I have been speaking to 4 different guides all English and living in Scotland all think we dont see the big picture up here and just shoot every thing we see and only the older chaps at retrial age seem to calm down abit.

 

[Wolverine]

Ye calmin doon already DavieNearin at age noo ain't ye

 

[scotspine]

just as well the retirement age is going up then......

 

[Gazza]

Your needing to turn your hearing aid up. What they said was that the English come up here and shoot evrything they see without thinking what may be.

 

[Paul at Fechan]

it fair to say they 'try' at least

 

[firsttimer]

Are we in Scotland to hungry do we shoot to many deer with out thinking of what might be. I have been speaking to 4 different guides all English and living in Scotland all think we dont see the big picture up here and just shoot every thing we see and only the older chaps at retrial age seem to calm down abit.

David are you referrring to lowland deer, highland deer or just deer numbers in Scotland in general?

I think there is an issue where a few individuals hold a lot of ground (some unshot) to the detriment of others and when the others are lucky enough to get their own ground their only option is to shoot whatever deer are on it to balance the cost and regardless of the impact on the numbers. Not a good management plan but it satisfies the recreational stalkers need.

The Highland Estates are generally well managed and have a set cull target where the herd size is maintained. I was stalking in Sutherland last week and the number of deer on the ground was immense, with the stalker advising that the SNH count seemed low at 400 and from the numbers that I saw I would agree.

 

[Shabz]

I might get a bit of stick for this (understatement of the month) but I'd like to see deer numbers in Scotland reduced vastly by maybe 70% so that the ground can recover and the trees can come back and then the deer populations returned to sustainable levels. Red deer herds have deprived Scotland of vast natural resources for a very long time now, there's room for all of it.

 

[Tikka 270]

I might get a bit of stick for this (understatement of the month) but I'd like to see deer numbers in Scotland reduced vastly by maybe 70% so that the ground can recover and the trees can come back and then the deer populations returned to sustainable levels. Red deer herds have deprived Scotland of vast natural resources for a very long time now, there's room for all of it.

rubbish, what about the thousands of sheep that carpet the hills, no mention of them destroying habitat

 

[bewsher500]

Red deer herds have deprived Scotland of vast natural resources for a very long time now, there's room for all of it.

are you on crack?!
victorian wool barons did that long before "stalking for the masses" came along!!

some island deer populations are already at 30% of what they were 10-20 years ago

 

[Caberhill]

I might get a bit of stick for this (understatement of the month) but I'd like to see deer numbers in Scotland reduced vastly by maybe 70% so that the ground can recover and the trees can come back and then the deer populations returned to sustainable levels. Red deer herds have deprived Scotland of vast natural resources for a very long time now, there's room for all of it.

I see were you are coming from Shabz, if you don't already have an understanding of what happened to the Caledonian Pine Forest there is a good go at the answer here http://www.treesforlife.org.uk/forest/humanimpacts/deforestation.html Bearing in mind what is brought to context in the text in the enclosed link at which point do we agree "this is the way the country side should look", 4500 years ago covered in trees or 14000 years ago when there was not a tree in sight? Or how about millions of years ago whne Dinasaurs walked the earth? The point is times, enviroment and climates change is part of the natural cycle and we should to an extent go with the flow. I know you mention natural resources but in reality it is most likely that Caledonian pine woods would not present any viable source of lumber due to the character of dispersion/lack of density, it would not be finically viable. However it does increase diversity, there are already several places in existence within Scotland where dear are heavily culled and natural regeneration is occurring (for the better)...

The current problem with the observations of deer numbers in Scotland is that in certain area's deer are 'persecuted' in others they are left to thrive to the point where overpopulation results in overgrazing, lack of shelter and resultant death by emaciation during the cold winters... We do not have a balance just now and it will not be easy to obtain, but what we need to do is allow the big wigs and people who have access to the bigger picture make the decisions in what is right and wrong at this current time. I do not believe we can say there is too many/too little from our own observations from one place to another. I shoot on a piece of ground were dear are rare and almost no existent from overshooting, the only deer shot there now are transient. However about 10 miles away I shoot on a piece of ground that is absolutely littered with deer...

 

[6pointer]

I think what the chaps were getting at was that we the Scottish rec stalkers get ground very easy and then plunder it.While they the English visitor when they get a chance stalk for a while see the valuable resource take it on and sell to there fellow englishman. I have stalked all over England and Scotland and do feel the english were more tolerant of the deer (welsh also) Even the farmers didn't seem to bother until the population was real high. I get farmers moaning soon as they see 3 4 roe deer in one field. ?

 

[redandroe]

David are you referrring to lowland deer, highland deer or just deer numbers in Scotland in general?

I think there is an issue where a few individuals hold a lot of ground (some unshot) to the detriment of others and when the others are lucky enough to get their own ground their only option is to shoot whatever deer are on it to balance the cost and regardless of the impact on the numbers. Not a good management plan but it satisfies the recreational stalkers need.

The Highland Estates are generally well managed and have a set cull target where the herd size is maintained. I was stalking in Sutherland last week and the number of deer on the ground was immense, with the stalker advising that the SNH count seemed low at 400 and from the numbers that I saw I would agree.

I cant agree with this.Highland estates are not all well managed. Many of them manage deer numbers on historical figures which ignores the population at the time. I have spoken with some keepers that manage their herd very well and when they have jumped over the march to look at mortality rates in the winter, they have GPS'd over 300 dead carcasses in one day. This is underculling at its best.
Also, SNH counts are based on springtime when the count is obviously done. On a piece of ground that I help on the count of stags is low at 39, when the summer comes in this expands to 80 to 100+, then during the rut it can vary as we are mainly a hind area. So counts have to be looked at in a holistic way, not just what is on your ground unless it is completely fenced in.
We need to shoot more deer in this country, but in the right places and for the correct reasons. Also shooting animals through the age range is a good idea. I know sporting estates that only cull mature animals............brilliant......NOT.
Some recreational stalkers do have a better idea on how to manage a deer population than some professionals. I have seen a head keeper of an excellent roe estate actually cull as many 6 point bucks so he could get better tips.................Needless to say that estate does not have that keeper any more and the roe for the short term are ruined on this ground.

Dont like to start the day negative

reds

 

[norma 308]

it fair to say they 'try' at least

Your needing to turn your hearing aid up. What they said was that the English come up here and shoot evrything they see without thinking what may be.

Gazza you naughty boy ,I don't see the scots estates turning down the English £££s .i have two Scottish guests coming down on sat I won't be turning down the Scottish £20's or maybe I should say £5'ers .
Kind regards
norma

 

[Tom D]

Shabz is right, high red numbers are preventing the regeneration of the natural forest, sheep numbers have fallen dramatically since subsidies were changed and no longer paid on head count.

 

[AlbaTaxidermy]

rubbish, what about the thousands of sheep that carpet the hills, no mention of them destroying habitat

also the resources are poping up like trees is the windmills, take the deer of and sheep and cattle are replacing them, deer are managed and steady in places where the forrestry are not sending in contractors to destroy all, who needs big storms to wipe them out, some areas without deer dont get going in regrowth with trees as the heather chokes them out etc, best to fence of little pockets in good areas to restart regeneration, hills are scarred with roads to the tops and woodlands like fields, if you go to austria and switzerland its hard to see the clearfelling and it blends in not like our system, we leave a pocket of rubbish trees to help with the eyesores and for migratory birds etc,, trees need cut though for the economy and the diseases that is rife in lodge pole, horrible stuff anyway,

 

[bewsher500]

Shabz is right, high red numbers are preventing the regeneration of the natural forest, sheep numbers have fallen dramatically since subsidies were changed and no longer paid on head count.

what "natural" forest?!
Do you mean the closely packed monoculture the FC calls a forest?
The one that is so toxic the no undergrowth can survive?
The one that is so dense that very little can move through it?

the forests we have could be any more unnatural if they were bamboo!

Sheep numbers have dropped because we have allowed supermarkets to monopolise an industry and buy lambs at £40 at the mart and bang them out at £14.99/kg 10 miles down the road!

please tell me where this hoard of rampaging deer is hammering mixed and natural coniferous (or even broadleaf for that matter) forest?

 

[finnbear270]

rubbish,

what about the thousands of sheep that carpet the hills

, no mention of them destroying habitat

Yeah!!, my wellies & vehicle floorpans can vouch for that one!!

 

[Tom D]

There has been loads of research into this, I am not talking about Sitka monoculture BTW this is about the boreal forest which once covered scotland, small pockets of it are still found on islands and other areas that have managed to remain ungrazed. It consists mainly of birch and pineand juniper, although other natives such as beech, ash and oak are also found in lower lying areas. It has been lost due to human forces, felling, grazing and the loss of the wolf.

There is an estate somewhere up north where they drastically reduced deer numbers and found that young trees appeared almost immediately.... thats all it takes, a few veteran trees to provide the seed, reduce the deer numbers and nature does the rest.

Danny Green Photography : Loughborough Leicestershire - Boreal Forests Glen Affric Scotland

 

[Gazza]

Gazza you naughty boy ,I don't see the scots estates turning down the English £££s .i have two Scottish guests coming down on sat I won't be turning down the Scottish £20's or maybe I should say £5'ers .
Kind regards
norma

Must be wealthy Scots if they are throwing £5'ers about.

 

[6pointer]

TOM D Sounds like your talking of marlodge http://www.thestalkingdirectory.co.uk/showthread.php/49915-Scotland/page2

Gazza or living off the state.