Turkish
Well-Known Member
Below is a link to the petition against the merger of sect. 1 and 2 firearms.
Do your duty
This is the link
Do your duty
This is the link
Section 1 and 2 merge petition
- Thread starter Turkish
- Start date
Heym SR20
Well-Known Member
Having just the one certificate- what exactly is the problem other than less paperwork?
In reality these days you will not a shotgun certificate just because you want one. You already have to demonstrate a good reason to have a shotgun - ie you want it for game shooting / vermin control / clay pigeon shooting / target shooting / collecting. You have to keep them in a secure cabinet just like a rifle.
Surely our representatives could use the proposed changes to streamline our certification. Ie with a certificate you are permitted to hold a certain number of different types of guns with a one out one in type requirement.
Ie you can have 1 rimfire, 1 vermin / small deer, 2 deer legal rifles and 10 shotguns that meet definition of section 2.
If you want to increase the above then you need a variation. Ie you want target rifles, or another stalking rifle.
But if you just want to change then you just notify the police.
Shotguns are readily identifiable in law. They are defined under section 2 and all the other conditions regarding shotguns such as borrowing etc can remain in place.
It would be like a driving license. We all have a basic driving licence that allows us to drive a car, pickup truck etc under certain weight limits.
If you want to drive a 44 tonne HGV you need another whole load of training, testing and medical fitness etc to have that endorsement. But it still on the same driving license.
In reality these days you will not a shotgun certificate just because you want one. You already have to demonstrate a good reason to have a shotgun - ie you want it for game shooting / vermin control / clay pigeon shooting / target shooting / collecting. You have to keep them in a secure cabinet just like a rifle.
Surely our representatives could use the proposed changes to streamline our certification. Ie with a certificate you are permitted to hold a certain number of different types of guns with a one out one in type requirement.
Ie you can have 1 rimfire, 1 vermin / small deer, 2 deer legal rifles and 10 shotguns that meet definition of section 2.
If you want to increase the above then you need a variation. Ie you want target rifles, or another stalking rifle.
But if you just want to change then you just notify the police.
Shotguns are readily identifiable in law. They are defined under section 2 and all the other conditions regarding shotguns such as borrowing etc can remain in place.
It would be like a driving license. We all have a basic driving licence that allows us to drive a car, pickup truck etc under certain weight limits.
If you want to drive a 44 tonne HGV you need another whole load of training, testing and medical fitness etc to have that endorsement. But it still on the same driving license.
timbrayford
Well-Known Member
Why not simplify things by making S1 like S2? Surely the problem is inappropriate decisions by inept FLDs, and not the law abiding shooting community?
8x57
Distinguished Member
Exactly a single document just different conditions applied to the different classes of firearm.
Does anyone know how many current FAC holders also hold a SGC ?
I would wager that it's a significant number.
Just by recording shotguns on FACs and doing away with the need for FAC holders to have an addition certificate for their shotguns would reduce a sizeable amount of unnecessary administration.
Heym SR20
Well-Known Member
Agreed - the simpler the better and do away with unnecessary paperwork. As the home office guidance states the decision should focus on the individuals suitability and character rather than on the gun itself.
In the wrong hands there is bugger all difference between a 22 lr, a .223, 470 NE, 9mm shotgun, 28 bore, 12 bore 4 bore etc etc. The end result is the same.
Section 2 is simply the definition of a Shotgun. The FAC was first introduced in the 1920’s. At that point the powers that be decided to exempt shotguns from being licensed. Shotgun Certificates were introduced in the 1960’s and quite why they had a separate certificate is lost in the mists of time.
But they won't streamline it, as they have no will to do so, look at licencing in the 1980's and now, look at the technology advances in the same period. By my reckoning you should be able to have your phone ID your face and a renewal or variation is done instantly, meanwhile back in the reality, police firearms department are barely in the steam age
one can assume from that post you are a person who owns very few shotguns.
dangerous path to go down to allow restrictions on number of guns owned, will end up with one.
Heym SR20
Well-Known Member
About 10 shotguns at the moment
@Heym SR20 while you say lending etc wouldn’t be affected, it will if the stated aim of closer alignment of s1 and s2 is achieved by abolishing s2 and moving everything bar <12ft/lb airguns to s1.
If that happens, you won’t be able to let a mate try their hand at clays, introduce youngsters who don’t have their own license and lots more. I’d also wager that you’ll be surrendering some of your 10 shotguns as good luck with showing good reason for each and every one of them.
I get where you’re coming from that if this could be replaced with root and branch reform, then perhaps that could be avoided but I seriously doubt that’s going to happen.
The best thing to hope for is that the Govt can be convinced to drop this (admittedly unlikely) or persuaded that s2 might be amended in some light touch way to achieve the ‘greater alignment’ stated as the aim but without the severe collateral damage. While I don’t imagine the Govt is going to change its mind off the back of this petition, it can be another arrow in the quiver for those lobbying for something less bad than the abolition of s2.
If that happens, you won’t be able to let a mate try their hand at clays, introduce youngsters who don’t have their own license and lots more. I’d also wager that you’ll be surrendering some of your 10 shotguns as good luck with showing good reason for each and every one of them.
I get where you’re coming from that if this could be replaced with root and branch reform, then perhaps that could be avoided but I seriously doubt that’s going to happen.
The best thing to hope for is that the Govt can be convinced to drop this (admittedly unlikely) or persuaded that s2 might be amended in some light touch way to achieve the ‘greater alignment’ stated as the aim but without the severe collateral damage. While I don’t imagine the Govt is going to change its mind off the back of this petition, it can be another arrow in the quiver for those lobbying for something less bad than the abolition of s2.
That's applying common sense. Who other than SD members cares if you use a 243 or a Creedmore.
I disagree, you'll end up with none
Please remember that there is no provision for an under 14 to have a S1 certificate and no provision for an under 17 without cert to even use a S1 firearm under supervision. 22LR at a HO approved club would be all.
Please also be cognisant of the 72 hour rule, and storage of s2 ammunition. We hope for improvements through changes to legislation but my experience is unfortunately the opposite, regardless of the intention of the new legislation.
Please also be cognisant of the 72 hour rule, and storage of s2 ammunition. We hope for improvements through changes to legislation but my experience is unfortunately the opposite, regardless of the intention of the new legislation.
Cranborne
Well-Known Member
This won't simplify the licensing system. A variation will be required for every time a shotgun is exchanged or purchased, with increased admin and resultant
delays.
A requirement to demonstrate a good reason for every shotgun ('so why do you need you need a separate 12 bore for wildfowling when you already have one for game shooting?').
And, potentially a cap on the amount of ammunition to be held at any one time.
This legislation has one objective, to reduce the number of licenced gun owners in the UK.
delays.
A requirement to demonstrate a good reason for every shotgun ('so why do you need you need a separate 12 bore for wildfowling when you already have one for game shooting?').
And, potentially a cap on the amount of ammunition to be held at any one time.
This legislation has one objective, to reduce the number of licenced gun owners in the UK.
I've often thought that the ammunition restriction to be a stupid rule. If your going to do bad stuff then any amount over 5 rounds you'll be able to do a lot of damage, so 1 box of shotgun cartridges would be too many and 1 box of 20 centre fire cartridges also. So wether someone has ability to hold 60 or 1000 cartridges is really neither here nor there.
One of the issues that may alsoi be getting overlooked is the land permission forms - I have a few people registered on our land for their FACs - and the police have in the past mentioned we have a few - If it came in for shotguns then how many more would we need to be on our land - another 20 ? Many of the lads just do a bit of game and vermin shooting and few have permissions of their own
There is a difference between the two Licensing forms . Lets not forget a shotgun needs no provable good reason , this allows the vast majority of shooters to get into shooting . We can also hold as many shotguns as we want / need ( where as with FAC you have to get a variation each time you want another ) , result will be a massive amount of the trade going under never mind the closure of many an RFD's Livelyhood
Shotguns require no provable reason in your application , its this that they seek
Shotguns require no provable reason in your application , its this that they seek
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