Sell them, sell them now or better still destroy it!

[Apthorpe]

If it happens it happens. I'm not sure that, that would spell the end of any individual country.

I don't know how you think a country with already quite high levels of tax and low levels sustains paying out an extra 500%+ of GDP over say 35 years without the system breaking down. I can only think that you find the numbers too large to properly comprehend.

I think like many you misunderstand that the free movement of people within the EU comes without conditions. As a citizen of another EU country I was entitled to be here for 3 months. If I could prove I was actively looking for work then that extended the period. I was not entitled to anything from the state other than necessary healthcare without having a job and that healthcare would be reimbursed to Denmark by the UK. These are exactly the same rules as there was in the UK when they were a member state. A citizen of another EU country cannot just turn up and expect to be paid a pension for example.

No, but they can turn up looking for work and as family members of those working. And further, those rules are only effective when dealing with relatively small numbers of people. Are you suggesting that an EU country is going to enforce those rules on very large numbers of other EU citizens who are effectively refugees? With what? Rubber bullets and tear gas? Real bullets?
You're just not going to have social conditions which will allow the status quo to persist. Particularly not so long as people keep pretending the Emperor's new clothes are wonderful.
Suppose they don't turn up and Denmark's OK but a majority of the EU population is in penury, do you seriously think you'd be immune from that? Why on earth would you not want to take sensible, preventative action?
I don't think I know anybody who'd so determinedly sit in bed insisting they're very comfortable while the ground floor of their house was on fire.

As with the UK you have to work for a specific period. So what exactly would these tens of millions of european migrants get out of moving here.

The flippant answer is the same as the tens of millions of migrants across Europe in the past 20 years - except they'd all be going to very few places with low indigenous populations.
They would get to avoid the crippling taxes which they would otherwise have to pay to sustain their pensioners, and the consequent broken economies, or just as likely they'd have descended into a state of completely anarchy and at that point it doesn't matter what they're entitled to. It will just be a very heavily supercharged version of what filled the UK with six million EU migrants in a decade.

No house, no money, no pension. Doesn't seem much point to moving here then.

That's still more point than staying in a country with no house, no employers, no public services, no social or physical security etc. isn't it? You seem to be in an extraordinary state of denial about the possibility of a welfare state failing, depsite it being a mathematical and economic virtual certainty, and despite precedents.

No not a fool's paradise. Just a really good place to live. Something has had we wondering today. I wonder about your state of happiness. You complain and complain and complain about everything. Almost every thread you post on your comments are aggressive, confrontational and quite often just depressing.

I thought I better review that and didn't find that opinion convincing. I avoided the temptation to learn from your style and simply reply "rubbish!" That said, like many others, I am not happy at the consequences of severely damaging, anti-democratic policies being forced on us and of course will challenge the more idiotic of those. After all, it's supposed to be a democratic country/continent.

I'm genuinely interested, is there anything in your life that makes you happy? Wife, kids, pets, your job, a nice glass of your favourite tipple, anything?

Most of the above and many other things, although I drink very, very little.

 

[BryanDC]

I don't know how you think a country with already quite high levels of tax and low levels sustains paying out an extra 500%+ of GDP over say 35 years without the system breaking down. I can only think that you find the numbers too large to properly comprehend.

No, but they can turn up looking for work and as family members of those working. And further, those rules are only effective when dealing with relatively small numbers of people. Are you suggesting that an EU country is going to enforce those rules on very large numbers of other EU citizens who are effectively refugees? With what? Rubber bullets and tear gas? Real bullets?
You're just not going to have social conditions which will allow the status quo to persist. Particularly not so long as people keep pretending the Emperor's new clothes are wonderful.
Suppose they don't turn up and Denmark's OK but a majority of the EU population is in penury, do you seriously think you'd be immune from that? Why on earth would you not want to take sensible, preventative action?
I don't think I know anybody who'd so determinedly sit in bed insisting they're very comfortable while the ground floor of their house was on fire.

The flippant answer is the same as the tens of millions of migrants across Europe in the past 20 years - except they'd all be going to very few places with low indigenous populations.
They would get to avoid the crippling taxes which they would otherwise have to pay to sustain their pensioners, and the consequent broken economies, or just as likely they'd have descended into a state of completely anarchy and at that point it doesn't matter what they're entitled to. It will just be a very heavily supercharged version of what filled the UK with six million EU migrants in a decade.

That's still more point than staying in a country with no house, no employers, no public services, no social or physical security etc. isn't it? You seem to be in an extraordinary state of denial about the possibility of a welfare state failing, depsite it being a mathematical and economic virtual certainty, and despite precedents.

I thought I better review that and didn't find that opinion convincing. I avoided the temptation to learn from your style and simply reply "rubbish!" That said, like many others, I am not happy at the consequences of severely damaging, anti-democratic policies being forced on us and of course will challenge the more idiotic of those. After all, it's supposed to be a democratic country/continent.

Most of the above and many other things, although I drink very, very little.

Good luck. I wish you well, but I have had enough of your complete and utter negativity on almost everything. Hej hej.

 

[GlennUK]

Good question, and obviously one should consider the opportunity cost.
If someone spends e.g £50k to avoid e.g. £2k bills, that compares unfavourably with keeping the £50k invested elsewhere, paying the bills from the income it generates and having the probability of not only still having the money but of capital appreciation.

To be frank the choiuces we made were not purely economic so altohg you aqre correc to highlight theopporutnity losss, that was not our key drviver.

FWIW the way the rebates work (the Renewable Heat Incentive) for the GSHP are perverse given the running costs are broadly similar to a gas boiler, you get paid depending on the weather, the more energy you use (i.e. the colder the climate) the more you get back. As it happens since we have had the GSHP the winters here in Essex have been particuallrly mild so we have had less rebate that we would otherwise have had, and therefore wont recover the full capex.

Anyway, whilst the trend currently is for suppliers/HMG to push ASHP simialr issues arise (as they do with replacing gas boilers) the ROI is rarely considered in any detail and the cap ex wil ltake many years to recover.

 

[Bavarianbrit]

I completely agree apart from the use of plastics - the use of plastics is fine as long as we don’t pay to ship them off to third world countries to dispose of who them dump them in oceans and rivers. I once visited a beach in Equatorial Guinea and it had a dump for rubbish and I kid you not - it was the height of a 3 story building and went on for a long way….absolutely ridiculous. It’s the same with the rivers of plastic in Asia - if we, as a species were serious about pollution we would be looking at how Asia and Africa dispose of things and stop them.

Our effect is but a drop in the ocean, we could completely achieve net zero ten times over and it would still be a scratch on the surface compared to what Asia is putting out.

We kill our country and industries for nothing.

Our governments could ban all imports from these polluting countries, the only thing IMO that might make them address their ignorance. China and India included.

 

[countrryboy]

Our governments could ban all imports from these polluting countries, the only thing IMO that might make them address their ignorance. China and India included.

Have the CO2 emissions from china not dropoed last year for the 1st time ever!
Think only 1% bht considering they have been increasing for decades..

And yet america has just scrapped pretty much an environmental air pollution it had.
Be powering/heating things by commercially burning tyres shortly.

Its a strange old world.

 

[GlennUK]

Have the CO2 emissions from china not dropoed last year for the 1st time ever!
Think only 1% bht considering they have been increasing for decades..

And yet america has just scrapped pretty much an environmental air pollution it had.
Be powering/heating things by commercially burning tyres shortly.

Its a strange old world.

IIRC the reduction was parts of a % could be just a rounding error!

 

[Demetrius]

I think that maybe you're missing the point.......as far as the septic tanks are concerned, it's all about the money......and getting as much of it as possible into the hands of their "establishment".
China and India?....probably similar motivation.
One thing's for sure, none of their policy makers appear to give a sh*t about the health and well-being of future generations, which is very sad.

D.

 

[Apthorpe]

I think that maybe you're missing the point.......as far as the septic tanks are concerned, it's all about the money......and getting as much of it as possible into the hands of their "establishment".
China and India?....probably similar motivation.
One thing's for sure, none of their policy makers appear to give a sh*t about the health and well-being of future generations, which is very sad.

Quite so. But the same negligence of future generations permeates all European (inc. UK) policy across the board too. We shouldn't think too badly of others when our leaders are just as bad...or worse.

D.

 

[Demetrius]

On reflection, I agree with you, and add it was every global governments' policy, not only Europes' (diverse population notwithstanding, the UK is part of Europe....).

D

 

[Apthorpe]

On reflection, I agree with you, and add it was every global governments' policy, not only Europes' (diverse population notwithstanding, the UK is part of Europe....).

D

I wasn't particularly thinking of carbon emissions because I do think Western governments acted much better than some other countries. It has not always been known that burning fossil fuels was so damaging and the reductions and sokutions developed have overwhelmingly been done by them. Meanwhile other nations especially in Asia have knowingly acted disgracefully and contunue to do so.
Notwithstanding that, running clearly unsustainable fiscal policies shows a similar disregard for future generations.

 

[Freeforester]

Have the CO2 emissions from china not dropoed last year for the 1st time ever!
Think only 1% bht considering they have been increasing for decades..

And yet america has just scrapped pretty much an environmental air pollution it had.
Be powering/heating things by commercially burning tyres shortly.

Its a strange old world.

 

[MarinePMI]

Have the CO2 emissions from china not dropoed last year for the 1st time ever!
Think only 1% bht considering they have been increasing for decades..

And yet america has just scrapped pretty much an environmental air pollution it had.
Be powering/heating things by commercially burning tyres shortly.

Its a strange old world.

That's because their economy is starting to tank, and their population is starting to die off.

This is why Trump is reshoring so much back into the US. China is tied into everyone's economy. When China's tanks, it's going to drag everyone down with them. Trump is severing as much as possible, any dependency on China's and others' economies, so that the US doesn't get sucked down with everyone else.

And those that invest in the reshoring of efforts int he US, will have some bit of shelter when the world economy goes into the crapper. Smart leaders see this. Not-so-smart ones either don't, or think they can negotiate their country through what are most assuredly some hard times ahead.

The whole Net Zero thing is just another drag on everyone's economy that does nothing to address climate change. It only makes the wealthier nations' economies weaker, as they outsource their industry in the drive to meet "net zero" standards.