Sending firearms for repair via Parcel Force/Royal Mail

[ContinShots]

So what stops an RFD just sending it as a personal customer by walking into the post office? Must be additional benefits and security by holding an RFD parcel force account?

So you are confirming that I can pack up a shotgun, walk down to my post office and send that to Bang and Bodget - that well known RFD who will then repair it for me.

Anyone can post anything in the postal networks if they want to, irrespective of any laws and terms and conditions; people break laws etc all of the time. How do you think drugs and other things get posted around the UK? Laws and regulations don't stop bad things happening.

As I've now said multiple times, you can only post direct to an RFD and it can only be in very limited circumstances which are not formal transfers that require notification (eg. repair). As I said in my original post, there are obviously pros in using an RFD to dispatch, but that doesn't mean you cannot necessarily legally and in keeping with RM/PF terms and conditions post it direct to an RFD for repair.

There are scores of RFDs operating like this in the UK (I've dealt with four of them in the past) and it would appear to be entirely legal, no matter what people may *feel*. And that was confirmed to the gunsmith I'm talking to about the repair when they contacted PF today.

 

[ContinShots]

So what stops an RFD just sending it as a personal customer by walking into the post office? Must be additional benefits and security by holding an RFD parcel force account?

If you read Royal Mail and Parcel Force's terms and conditions, nothing. Their stipulation about Rfds transferring only to RFDs only applies to their bus iess account holder terms, their non-business terms allow for the carriage of S1 and S2 friesrms but with no condition on it being sent RFD to RFD. However, you are limited to £150 insurance for PF as a non-business customer, so there is obviously a risk in doing that if it gets lost.

 

[Liveonce]

Anyone can post anything in the postal networks if they want to, irrespective of any laws and terms and conditions; people break laws etc all of the time. How do you think drugs and other things get posted around the UK? Laws and regulations don't stop bad things happening.

.

They can but no compensation if it gets lost or damaged and likely destroyed if discovered or passed to the Police for further action.

 

[ContinShots]

You can have parcels collected from your home address by Royal Mail, which bypasses the whole business of having to explain to some numpty behind the Post Office counter what it is.

You can, but Royal Mail's terms and conditions expressly state that you must present firearms at the post office (same applies to PF), so they may well consider that a breach of their terms if you are found out. In the past, I have just bought postage online and presented the package at a post office country. I've never once been asked what's in it. I've done that for a number of firearms sent for repair and multiple airguns as well (which as we all know, are also firearms).

 

[M@tt]

Firearms and components only have to go via RFD if there's a "transfer".
If it is a repair or other service not involving a "transfer" then it can go via any legal carrier, following their terms and conditions etc, and can be sent direct to the customer. That usually means either Royal Mail or Parcel Force.

 

[Blaser243]

This is a very interesting legal discussion, but quite frankly if a gun went missing in the post or was used in crime, you would be loosing your certificates immediately and I venture that if the RFD receiving (or sending) knew about it too, they would also have some questions to answer and be under scrutiny. Personally, I wouldn't object to that because I have lost parcels to Royal Mail and other providers and would not be pleased (nor surprised) if another legal firearm found its way into the criminal underworld.

We have all seen and heard countless instances where people have been revoked for less, so I'd suggest you keep this as a theoretical discussion rather than test it out.

Do you really think this is a good idea?

 

[kenbro]

This is a very interesting legal discussion, but quite frankly if a gun went missing in the post or was used in crime, you would be loosing your certificates immediately and I venture that if the RFD receiving (or sending) knew about it too, they would also have some questions to answer and be under scrutiny. Personally, I wouldn't object to that because I have lost parcels to Royal Mail and other providers and would not be pleased (nor surprised) if another legal firearm found its way into the criminal underworld.

We have all seen and heard countless instances where people have been revoked for less, so I'd suggest you keep this as a theoretical discussion rather than test it out.

Do you really think this is a good idea?

Are you speaking with authority, Sir?
KB.

 

[M@tt]

This is a very interesting legal discussion, but quite frankly if a gun went missing in the post or was used in crime, you would be loosing your certificates immediately and I venture that if the RFD receiving (or sending) knew about it too, they would also have some questions to answer and be under scrutiny. Personally, I wouldn't object to that because I have lost parcels to Royal Mail and other providers and would not be pleased (nor surprised) if another legal firearm found its way into the criminal underworld.

We have all seen and heard countless instances where people have been revoked for less, so I'd suggest you keep this as a theoretical discussion rather than test it out.

Do you really think this is a good idea?

I've had two go missing in the post. I had no contact with police about either. Parcel instigated an investigation in each case.
One had my label slapped on the previous pick up so I got a box of SIM cards and the rifle sat in their depot for the weekend until it was 'found'.
The second will no doubt arrive soon. It has apparently been 'found'.

No need to involve the police at this stage. They have enough to do as it is, if I thought it was stolen rather than just missing that would be a different matter.

 

[Blaser243]

Are you speaking with authority, Sir?
KB.

Obtuse question, so obtuse answer: yes, great and sincere authority.

 

[MontyDachs]

When I sent a shotgun back for a repair, the dealer I purchased it from arranged for parcel force to collect from my home address, but when it came back to me, I had to collect from my local rfd.

 

[BE Precision]

When I sent a shotgun back for a repair, the dealer I purchased it from arranged for parcel force to collect from my home address, but when it came back to me, I had to collect from my local rfd.

 

[Stalker62]

This is a very interesting legal discussion...

@Blaser243

Perfectly legal.

 

[gixer1]

This is a very interesting legal discussion, but quite frankly if a gun went missing in the post or was used in crime, you would be loosing your certificates immediately and I venture that if the RFD receiving (or sending) knew about it too, they would also have some questions to answer and be under scrutiny. Personally, I wouldn't object to that because I have lost parcels to Royal Mail and other providers and would not be pleased (nor surprised) if another legal firearm found its way into the criminal underworld.

We have all seen and heard countless instances where people have been revoked for less, so I'd suggest you keep this as a theoretical discussion rather than test it out.

Do you really think this is a good idea?

Nonsense, sorry - but you are incorrect. The parcel carrier has a duty of care, if they misplaced it the sender would not be responsible as they have taken reasonable precautions to maintain its security,

Sending a firearm for repair is legal via RM/PF as the OP mentions and has provided the laws.

We have allowed ourselves to fall into this pit where we think everything is the FAC holders fault or responsibility and no other possibilities can occur.

Interestingly I had a dilemma with an obsolete chambered rifle which is on my FAC where someone wanted to purchase it who was not an FAC holder - in this is tan e it would be legal to send it via RM or any courier, however the police initially gave me bad info and said the rifle would need to be deactivated - which is incorrect and would have dramatically decreased the value of said rifle - good thing I didn’t go ahead without checking!

Regards,
Gixer

 

[Blaser243]

As one who has made a living for many years in presenting arguments to courts, if I was instructed to represent either police or certificate holder in an appeal against a revocation due to a firearm going missing in the post, I could make good arguments as to whether the safekeeping obligations had been met or not. However, I’d feel more confident representing the police on this issue.

But I’d rather deal in realities. Why would you want to put your certificates at risk, because that is what you are doing. If you think you’re battling some greater good here, you’re not. We all know things go missing in the post all the time. It’s not as if it’s a remote possibility.

Firearm goes missing and is later used in a crime. Who wins? Nobody.

 

[Greenmist]

Firearms and components only have to go via RFD if there's a "transfer".
If it is a repair or other service not involving a "transfer" then it can go via any legal carrier, following their terms and conditions etc, and can be sent direct to the customer. That usually means either Royal Mail or Parcel Force.

That will be how Jacksons post out repaired/replaced moderators

 

[Greenmist]

As one who has made a living for many years in presenting arguments to courts, if I was instructed to represent either police or certificate holder in an appeal against a revocation due to a firearm going missing in the post, I could make good arguments as to whether the safekeeping obligations had been met or not. However, I’d feel more confident representing the police on this issue.

But I’d rather deal in realities. Why would you want to put your certificates at risk, because that is what you are doing. If you think you’re battling some greater good here, you’re not. We all know things go missing in the post all the time. It’s not as if it’s a remote possibility.

Firearm goes missing and is later used in a crime. Who wins? Nobody.

How would certificates be at risk if the item was sent via SD under the correct T&Cs, entered and logged into their system and the carrier is in possession?

 

[Ronin]

Not read it all as busy

Get the person doing the work for you to arrange PF to collect direct from you

It’s a simple electronic form to fill out on the PF menu system

Provide rfd either proof that you legal hold it (copy of your fac ) before hand

He will no doubt insist on sending back to an rfd which is fair comment and for you to arrange with them

You would have to box the weapon up properly (pelicase ) locked or double cardboard box and very secure tape

Send keys to rfd via special delivery so they can open the case ,,

Simple really

 

[Heym SR20]

Or save yourself a huge amount of hassle. Either find somebody local to you who can effect the repair.

Or jump in the car and drive. Most of the UK can be reached in a few hours.

The reason many RFDs don’t like endless transfers is that they can do the work, or have the same firearm sitting on their own shelves.

 

[weblyish]

How would certificates be at risk if the item was sent via SD under the correct T&Cs, entered and logged into their system and the carrier is in possession?

Exactly it's in the DSC1 training and they specifically gave Parcelforce 48h as the right service when i did mine - so how could it be the FAC holders fault if they did what training specifies

 

[cjm1066]

https://www.nationalcrimeagency.gov.uk/who-we-are/publications/489-home-office-firearms-security-handbook-2020/file

No such thing as a registered carrier? The HO guide uses reputable.