Shooting calves

[wildfowler.250]

So dicussing this with a friend recently. If you were to take out a hind,(red/sika) with this years calf following. At what point/stage in the year would the calf be self sufficient? This is not a discussion of hind or calf first as I’d take the calf. And if it was a male calf, then that’s legal to take for the duration of the hind season? And after that it’s a spiker and moves into stag season.

Opinions welcome. Hopefully straight forward and not a can of worms

 

[jimbo1984]

I've always been told a calf has a lot better chance of doing ok on its own after December I do the same with roe , I leave followers after xmas if they're not part of my cull plan

 

[Woodsmoke]

I'm a recreational stalker, so I won't shoot a doe with followers at any time of the year. Just my personal choice though, and I'm not having a go at anyone who does

 

[wildfowler.250]

Cheers gents. Any the legality of a male calf? Doesn’t matter whilst in hind season?

 

[75]

Cheers gents. Any the legality of a male calf? Doesn’t matter whilst in hind season?

I believe the widely accepted definition of "dependent" is 12 months from birth.

England & Wales:
A person shall not be guilty of an offence of any act done for the purpose of preventing the suffering of an injured or diseased deer. A person shall not be guilty of an offence taking or killing a deer that he reasonably believes

1. has been deprived in any way (other than by an unlawful taking or killing by that person) of a female deer on which it was dependent; or
2. is about to be deprived, by death from disease or a lawful taking or killing, of a female deer on which it is dependent.

Scotland:
Section 25 of the Deer (Scotland) Act 1996 exempts individuals from being guilty of any offences involving the taking or killing of deer at any time if it is done for the purpose of preventing suffering by:

an injured or diseased deer; or
by any deer calf, fawn or kid deprived, or about to be deprived, of its mother, or
a deer which is starving and which has no reasonable chance of recovering.

 

[captdavid]

Generally, we don't have that problem, because the seasons are set up to avoid any problem. In Texas whitetails rut in November and December, when 18 month old deer become sexually mature. Does fawn in May-June. our hunting season, which includes bucks and does, begins the first weekend in November. The Parks and Wildlife says that any5-6 month old fawn orphaned at that time should be ok. Although it might be best for a healthy population, most Texas hunters don't shoot first year fawns on purpose. I don't shoot does with fawns, just my choice. capt david

 

[captdavid]

Some definitions please. what do you call a follower? We call a deer born that year a fawn. an 18 month old, is called a yearling. Yearling does usually follow their mothers until a new fawn is born. young bucks are usually run off when a doe comes into season.

 

[Woodsmoke]

A follower is a dependent calf, fawn, or kid (depending on species) of under 12 months of age, I believe

 

[glogin]

So dicussing this with a friend recently. If you were to take out a hind,(red/sika) with this years calf following. At what point/stage in the year would the calf be self sufficient? This is not a discussion of hind or calf first as I’d take the calf. And if it was a male calf, then that’s legal to take for the duration of the hind season? And after that it’s a spiker and moves into stag season.

Opinions welcome. Hopefully straight forward and not a can of worms

Dont know about sika but a red calf will never do well if orphaned. Unlike wild boar the group will not accept/take care of it. It will be pushed away. If you shoot a hind the calf will stick around.
Last year a guy shot a hind and left the calf behind. When we found out about it, we wanted to take the calf the following day as it was quite harsh weather in Jan last year but the wolves already killed it when we got there. I would avoid such situatiin

 

[wildfowler.250]

I believe the widely accepted definition of "dependent" is 12 months from birth.

England & Wales:
A person shall not be guilty of an offence of any act done for the purpose of preventing the suffering of an injured or diseased deer. A person shall not be guilty of an offence taking or killing a deer that he reasonably believes

1. has been deprived in any way (other than by an unlawful taking or killing by that person) of a female deer on which it was dependent; or
2. is about to be deprived, by death from disease or a lawful taking or killing, of a female deer on which it is dependent.

Scotland:
Section 25 of the Deer (Scotland) Act 1996 exempts individuals from being guilty of any offences involving the taking or killing of deer at any time if it is done for the purpose of preventing suffering by:

an injured or diseased deer; or
by any deer calf, fawn or kid deprived, or about to be deprived, of its mother, or
a deer which is starving and which has no reasonable chance of recovering.

Cheers for all the replies and thank you in particular for this very comprehensive answer

 

[William Grant]

Hal sika are more resilient than reds IMO, reds been herding animals and sika in my experience up here been in small groups or just hind/calf and maybe a follower more apt to survive if orphaned.

 

[Alantoo]

Dont know about sika but a red calf will never do well if orphaned. Unlike wild boar the group will not accept/take care of it. It will be pushed away. If you shoot a hind the calf will stick around.
Last year a guy shot a hind and left the calf behind. When we found out about it, we wanted to take the calf the following day as it was quite harsh weather in Jan last year but the wolves already killed it when we got there. I would avoid such situatiin

I had understood that an orphaned Fallow youngster was better off than an orphaned Roe because the Fallow herd would guide the orphan whereas the Roe would be on it own. I had also understood that by the time the doe season started, orphaned followers could survive but that they would not do as well as those that were guided by the mothers for longer. So given the choice I reckoned to take Fallow earlier in the season and Roe later.

I was interested to read that Red deer groups did not accept/take care of their orphans...does anybody know if this is also true of Fallow?

Alan

 

[VSS]

I had understood that an orphaned Fallow youngster was better off than an orphaned Roe because the Fallow herd would guide the orphan whereas the Roe would be on it own. I had also understood that by the time the doe season started, orphaned followers could survive but that they would not do as well as those that were guided by the mothers for longer. So given the choice I reckoned to take Fallow earlier in the season and Roe later.

I was interested to read that Red deer groups did not accept/take care of their orphans...does anybody know if this is also true of Fallow?

Alan

Fallow will create crèches, where one doe looks after several fawns while their mothers graze. However, the crèche guardian won't suckle any fawn except her own, and an orphaned fawn will starve to death if it isn't sufficiently well grown to be independent.

 

[Alantoo]

It was the crèche scenario that I have witnessed which I presumed the other herding species would mirror...I have seen older does with a bunch of youngsters quite late in the doe season (long after weaning) when the youngsters were all but full grown. I was surprised that the Red deer did not do the same.

Alan

 

[baguio]

A follower is a female of one of the herding species greater than 12 months but less than 24 months old.

 

[Heym SR20]

I would go on size, condition, the weather and how it behaves. A big strong calf that is already a bit away from its mother and plenty of food about in a mild December I would leave. But a scruffy small thing that clinging to its mother in a cold Feb I would take.

In practice I would select those hinds that are barren or have a poor calf. Those that produce good calves I would leave in the herd.

And big strong calves grow into strong adults.

 

[slider]

A follower is a female of one of the herding species greater than 12 months but less than 24 months old.

Where did that definition come from? A follower of any species is by definition one that follows - namely a calf, kid, fawn, lamb, piglet ect of either sex that is still following of dependant on its mother.

Wording of the Deer Act -
(2A)A person shall not be guilty of an offence under section 2 or section 3 above by reason of taking or killing a deer that he reasonably believes—
(a)has been deprived in any way (other than by an unlawful taking or killing by that person) of a female deer on which it was dependent; or
(b)is about to be deprived, by death from disease or a lawful taking or killing, of a female deer on which it is dependent.]

 

[75]

A follower is a female of one of the herding species greater than 12 months but less than 24 months old.

Eh? How do you figure that out??

 

[VSS]

A follower is a female of one of the herding species greater than 12 months but less than 24 months old.

I don't think that definition is entirely correct.

 

[VSS]

I don't think that definition is entirely correct.

Sorry, I should expand on that bald statement, as Baguio's definition is the most nearly correct, IMO.

The sector of a herd known as "followers" are young animals that are independent, but not yet productive themselves. So, while the 12-24 months definition holds good for a dairy herd where heifers calve down at 2 years old, I don't think that precise age bracket can be applied to all herding species. Some will become independent at a greater or lesser age, and some will reach sexual maturity earlier or later. Compare, for example, the fast development of a pig, with the slow development of an elephant.

The term "followers" isn't applied to very young animals simply because they follow (and are wholly dependent on) their mothers. These would be calves, fawns, kids or whatever description is appropriate to the species.

However, I don't think anyone would be misunderstood if, having seen, for example, a fallow doe with a well-grown (yet still dependant) fawn they reported having seen a doe with a follower.