Shotguns on section 1

Section 2 - provides an exception for shotguns, where in the past there was a much lower threshold for possession. I don’t there any restrictions on buying and owning shotguns till the 1960’s. In the 1968 Firearms Act consolidated and gave the Police the job of issuing Shotgun Certificates. Person had to be of good repute, not a criminal and provide a reference from a professional type person (lawyer, docter, company director, headmaster etc).
Yes, in that there was also the concern in the 1920 Act of weapons that could be easily concealed.

So not just conventional revolvers and pistols were s1 bit also anything even though smoothbore with a barrel less than nine inches.

Thus all those .410" shot pistols with barrels just over nine inches. LOL! But true. With a barrel just ling enough to evade s1 classification.

Then in the 1937 Act that barrel length became twenty inches and in a later Act (possibly before the 1960s) twenty-four inches that is in the current (bit severely now amended) 1968 Firearms Act.
 
As a qualified ro I appreciate what you are saying, but I do believe that this is the price that we pay for being untrained, with the FLD in essence taking on the role of supervising our individual shooting activities instead. I would't presume that the possession of stalking rights guarantees that the holder is a safe shot either!
I would not disagree with you. If we a good standard of training hunters that was clear to all, with a clearly understood pass / fail that was accepted by the licencing then life would be much easier.

I am often criticised for mentioning what happens on the continent, but having good friends who are instructors on The German Jagdschein hunting license, that the examination is an official examination (I think run by the State but I could be wrong, but I understand its equivalent to a driving license) and that once you have it, its seen a major qualification and it allows you to have 2 handguns and up to a good number (20) Long guns for use in hunting and practice.

The bar is quite high, but perfectly achievable by an individual who is prepared to learn the basics of the law, quarry identification, proficiency in use of hunting guns and tools, ethics and customs.

The German public generally have a view that hunters are respected members of the community. Of course there are those who are antis. Always have been and always will be.

UK public view on hunters and shooters is that either they are bunch of toffs who enjoy murdering phaesants and lording it over the countryside, or that we are some sort of warped red necked individuals who like crawling though the bushes and mud in the pursuit of deer, foxes and pigeons. I don’t agree with this general view and it certainly doesn’t cover the majority, but can understand why many take this view.
 
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Would putting all shotguns s1 mean that high capacity semi autos would just be the same as a normal shotgun then?
No. The law is very clear in the definition of a shotgun - maximum capacity is 2 cartridges.

A semi automatic, lever or pump actioned smooth bored gun with a min barrel of 24” with a fixed magazine containing more than 2 cartridges is a Firearm.

All semi automatic and pump actioned rifle barreled guns are prohibited under section 5.
 
No. The law is very clear in the definition of a shotgun - maximum capacity is 2 cartridges.

A semi automatic, lever or pump actioned smooth bored gun with a min barrel of 24” with a fixed magazine containing more than 2 cartridges is a Firearm.

All semi automatic and pump actioned rifle barreled guns are prohibited under section 5.
But if shotguns are becoming s1 then where will the s1 guns end up?
 
UK public view on hunters and shooters is that either they are bunch of toffs who enjoy murdering phaesants and lording it over the countryside, or that we are some sort of warped red necked individuals who like crawling though the bushes and mud in the pursuit of deer, foxes and pigeons. I don’t agree with this general view and it certainly doesn’t cover the majority, but can understand why many take this view.

Fortunately the U.K. public do not in general in my experience think like you think they do, must have no opinion and the only contact they have with firearms is on TV, films etc or playing video games.

FLO do not supervise are shooting, they have a responsibility to ensure you are a fit and proper person to be in possession of firearms as per the law. Kent apparently are issuing open certificates at first grant.
 
I don't think anyone has suggested that shotguns will become s1, only that s2 will be subject to some similar controls as s1 (eg, good reason).
and then ending up at virtually the bottom of the slippery slope, only place next to go a complete ban on private ownership. And why S2 to S1 because the police failed at several stages in the Plymouth shootings and we as usual stay very quite and compliant in the situation hoping for no further restrictions.

 
May be they will finally get what they have wanted since 1987 ?

A. Hungerford

On the morning of August 19, 1987, a licensed gun owner named Michael Ryan dressed up like Sylvester Stallone's "Rambo" character and shot a woman thirteen times with a handgun.[132] After shooting at a filling station attendant, he drove to his home in the small market town of Hungerford, where he killed his mother and his dog. In the next hour, he went into town and slaughtered fourteen more people with his handgun and his Chinese-made Kalashnikov rifle. Ryan disappeared for a few hours, reappeared at 4 p.m. in a school, and killed himself three hours later.[133] A few days later, a double murder was perpetrated at Bristol, this one with a shotgun.[134]

The media's reaction, especially the print media's, was intense. The tabloid press ran editorials instructing the public how to spot potential mass murderers--advising suspicion of anyone who lived alone or was generally a "loner," who lived with his mother, or who was a bit quiet.[135] The tabloid press and the respectable press both pushed heavily for more stringent gun laws.[136] Pressure also mounted for tighter censorship of violent television.

The Hungerford atrocity was the only instance in which a self-loading rifle had been used in a British homicide. Punishing every owner of an object because one person misused the object might seem unfair, but two factors worked in favor of prohibition. First, the cabinet leadership observed that the number of owners of self-loading rifles was relatively small, so no important number of voters would be offended. Second, shotgun owners, who are by far the largest group of gun owners, generally decided that they did not care what the government did to someone else's rifles.[137]

Parliament responded. Semi-automatic centerfire rifles, which had been legally owned for nearly a century, were banned.[138] Pump-action rifles were banned as well, since it was argued that these guns could be substituted for semi-automatics. Practical Rifle Shooting, the fastest-growing sport in Britain, vanished temporarily, although participants eventually switched to bolt-action rifles.[139](p.429)

The shotgunners, however, made a disastrous error. The Association of Chiefs of Police had long been pushing to bring shotguns into the restrictive "Section 1" of the Firearms Act, which strictly controlled rifles and pistols. The ACPO worked out a deal with the Thatcher administration to take a major step in the ACPO's direction. As part of the legislation responding to a crime with a rifle, controls on shotguns were made significantly more stringent. There was little criminological rationale for the extra restrictions on shotguns; indeed, the extra police personnel required to administer the licenses would have to be diverted from other tasks. A Home Office Research Study written the year before Hungerford had concluded:

To make shotguns subject to the same controls as pistols ... would have considerable resource implications for the police .... Nor is there any real optimism that anything would be achieved by such a move since pistols ... are already subject to the very strict controls and yet ... are used in more cases of armed crime than shotguns.[140]
As a result of the 1988 law, shotguns that can hold more than two shells at once now require a Firearms Certificate, the same as rifles and handguns.[141]Moreover, all shotguns must now be registered. Shotgun sales between private parties must be reported to the police. Buyers of shot shells must produce a shotgun certificate. Applicants for a shotgun certificate must obtain a countersignature by a person who has known the applicant for two years and is "a member of Parliament, justice of the peace, minister of religion, doctor, lawyer, established civil servant, bank officer or person of similar standing."[142]

Most importantly, the law specified that an applicant for a Shotgun Certificate, which was required for shotguns capable of holding only one or two shells, could be denied if the applicant did not have a "good reason" for wanting to own shotgun. Although the statute placed the burden on proof on the police, to show that there was not a good reason, police practice immediately shifted the burden back to the applicant to show that she did have a good reason. Self-defense, of course, was deemed not to be good reason. Persons who were active members of shooting clubs, recreational hunters, and farmers engaged in pest control were all deemed by the police to have demonstrated good reason, but a person who merely wanted to retain legal possession of a family heirloom was not considered by the police to have a (p.430)good reason.[143] By the time two cycles of renewals for the Shotgun Certificates, which were only valid for three years, had been completed, the number of legal owners of shotguns had fallen by a quarter. This sharply reversed the steady growth of gun ownership in the previous two decades.[144]

While the relatively liberal pre-1988 shotgun system had allowed significant growth in the number of legal shotgun owners, the greater police discretion over rifles and pistol licenses had allowed police to reduce continually the number of legal owners of rifles or pistols. The 256,000 holders of Firearms Certificates in 1968 had been cut to 173,000 by 1994.[145] Approximately one-third of the group of Firearms Certificate holders owned handguns.

The most important remaining difference between Firearms Certificates for rifles and pistols and Shotgun Certificates was that holders of the latter did not need police permission for every new acquisition. Once a person was granted as Shotgun Certificate, he could still acquire as many shotguns as he wanted, although he had to report each acquisition to the government. In contrast, Firearms Certificate holders have been required, ever since the original Firearms Act of 1920, to receive a police-granted "variance" for each new acquisition. Generally speaking, the police are skeptical about claims that Firearms Certificate holders have a "good reason" for wanting additional guns. Consequently, if a target shooter has one rifle in the .308 caliber, he will not be allowed to acquire a second rifle in the same caliber.[146] To bring all shotguns under Section one of the Firearms Act, a step which has not yet been taken, would have huge implications for shotgun acquisition. A person who legally owned one 12-gauge shotgun would not be allowed to own more than one.

Home Secretary Douglas Hurd told an audience that most the provisions in the 1988 Firearm Act had been prepared long before Hungerford, and the government had simply been waiting for the right moment to push them.[147]
 
I would not disagree with you. If we a good standard of training hunters that was clear to all, with a clearly understood pass / fail that was accepted by the licencing then life would be much easier.

I am often criticised for mentioning what happens on the continent, but having good friends who are instructors on The German Jagdschein hunting license, that the examination is an official examination (I think run by the State but I could be wrong, but I understand its equivalent to a driving license) and that once you have it, its seen a major qualification and it allows you to have 2 handguns and up to a good number (20) Long guns for use in hunting and practice.

The bar is quite high, but perfectly achievable by an individual who is prepared to learn the basics of the law, quarry identification, proficiency in use of hunting guns and tools, ethics and customs.

The German public generally have a view that hunters are respected members of the community. Of course there are those who are antis. Always have been and always will be.

UK public view on hunters and shooters is that either they are bunch of toffs who enjoy murdering phaesants and lording it over the countryside, or that we are some sort of warped red necked individuals who like crawling though the bushes and mud in the pursuit of deer, foxes and pigeons. I don’t agree with this general view and it certainly doesn’t cover the majority, but can understand why many take this view.
I agree, I'd happily trade passing a jagdschein type exam for less pettifogging nit picking from the FLD. To my mind the whole regulation of civilian firearms use wants starting again from scratch rather than tinkering with, in this context, a 100 year old act that is no longer fit for purpose.
 
May be they will finally get what they have wanted since 1987 ?

A. Hungerford

On the morning of August 19, 1987, a licensed gun owner named Michael Ryan dressed up like Sylvester Stallone's "Rambo" character and shot a woman thirteen times with a handgun.[132] After shooting at a filling station attendant, he drove to his home in the small market town of Hungerford, where he killed his mother and his dog. In the next hour, he went into town and slaughtered fourteen more people with his handgun and his Chinese-made Kalashnikov rifle. Ryan disappeared for a few hours, reappeared at 4 p.m. in a school, and killed himself three hours later.[133] A few days later, a double murder was perpetrated at Bristol, this one with a shotgun.[134]

The media's reaction, especially the print media's, was intense. The tabloid press ran editorials instructing the public how to spot potential mass murderers--advising suspicion of anyone who lived alone or was generally a "loner," who lived with his mother, or who was a bit quiet.[135] The tabloid press and the respectable press both pushed heavily for more stringent gun laws.[136] Pressure also mounted for tighter censorship of violent television.

The Hungerford atrocity was the only instance in which a self-loading rifle had been used in a British homicide. Punishing every owner of an object because one person misused the object might seem unfair, but two factors worked in favor of prohibition. First, the cabinet leadership observed that the number of owners of self-loading rifles was relatively small, so no important number of voters would be offended. Second, shotgun owners, who are by far the largest group of gun owners, generally decided that they did not care what the government did to someone else's rifles.[137]

Parliament responded. Semi-automatic centerfire rifles, which had been legally owned for nearly a century, were banned.[138] Pump-action rifles were banned as well, since it was argued that these guns could be substituted for semi-automatics. Practical Rifle Shooting, the fastest-growing sport in Britain, vanished temporarily, although participants eventually switched to bolt-action rifles.[139](p.429)

The shotgunners, however, made a disastrous error. The Association of Chiefs of Police had long been pushing to bring shotguns into the restrictive "Section 1" of the Firearms Act, which strictly controlled rifles and pistols. The ACPO worked out a deal with the Thatcher administration to take a major step in the ACPO's direction. As part of the legislation responding to a crime with a rifle, controls on shotguns were made significantly more stringent. There was little criminological rationale for the extra restrictions on shotguns; indeed, the extra police personnel required to administer the licenses would have to be diverted from other tasks. A Home Office Research Study written the year before Hungerford had concluded:


As a result of the 1988 law, shotguns that can hold more than two shells at once now require a Firearms Certificate, the same as rifles and handguns.[141]Moreover, all shotguns must now be registered. Shotgun sales between private parties must be reported to the police. Buyers of shot shells must produce a shotgun certificate. Applicants for a shotgun certificate must obtain a countersignature by a person who has known the applicant for two years and is "a member of Parliament, justice of the peace, minister of religion, doctor, lawyer, established civil servant, bank officer or person of similar standing."[142]

Most importantly, the law specified that an applicant for a Shotgun Certificate, which was required for shotguns capable of holding only one or two shells, could be denied if the applicant did not have a "good reason" for wanting to own shotgun. Although the statute placed the burden on proof on the police, to show that there was not a good reason, police practice immediately shifted the burden back to the applicant to show that she did have a good reason. Self-defense, of course, was deemed not to be good reason. Persons who were active members of shooting clubs, recreational hunters, and farmers engaged in pest control were all deemed by the police to have demonstrated good reason, but a person who merely wanted to retain legal possession of a family heirloom was not considered by the police to have a (p.430)good reason.[143] By the time two cycles of renewals for the Shotgun Certificates, which were only valid for three years, had been completed, the number of legal owners of shotguns had fallen by a quarter. This sharply reversed the steady growth of gun ownership in the previous two decades.[144]

While the relatively liberal pre-1988 shotgun system had allowed significant growth in the number of legal shotgun owners, the greater police discretion over rifles and pistol licenses had allowed police to reduce continually the number of legal owners of rifles or pistols. The 256,000 holders of Firearms Certificates in 1968 had been cut to 173,000 by 1994.[145] Approximately one-third of the group of Firearms Certificate holders owned handguns.

The most important remaining difference between Firearms Certificates for rifles and pistols and Shotgun Certificates was that holders of the latter did not need police permission for every new acquisition. Once a person was granted as Shotgun Certificate, he could still acquire as many shotguns as he wanted, although he had to report each acquisition to the government. In contrast, Firearms Certificate holders have been required, ever since the original Firearms Act of 1920, to receive a police-granted "variance" for each new acquisition. Generally speaking, the police are skeptical about claims that Firearms Certificate holders have a "good reason" for wanting additional guns. Consequently, if a target shooter has one rifle in the .308 caliber, he will not be allowed to acquire a second rifle in the same caliber.[146] To bring all shotguns under Section one of the Firearms Act, a step which has not yet been taken, would have huge implications for shotgun acquisition. A person who legally owned one 12-gauge shotgun would not be allowed to own more than one.

Home Secretary Douglas Hurd told an audience that most the provisions in the 1988 Firearm Act had been prepared long before Hungerford, and the government had simply been waiting for the right moment to push them.[147]
Much of the post Hungerford restrictions were originally proposed in the 1973 green paper
 
I agree, I'd happily trade passing a jagdschein type exam for less pettifogging nit picking from the FLD. To my mind the whole regulation of civilian firearms use wants starting again from scratch rather than tinkering with, in this context, a 100 year old act that is no longer fit for purpose.

why do you think just because you passed an exam the FLD would stop nit picking?

Be careful what you wish for.
 
why do you think just because you passed an exam the FLD would stop nit picking?

Be careful what you wish for.
If the law was changed to take it out of their remit it would. Perhaps the real question is are the police fit to be entrusted with firearms licensing? The odd massacre here and there suggests otherwise
 
If the law was changed to take it out of their remit it would. Perhaps the real question is are the police fit to be entrusted with firearms licensing? The odd massacre here and there suggests otherwise

i have owned firearms for fifty years and never felt the police were nit picking or unreasonable. Yes timescales have become much longer than is satisfactory. Given the nature of the checks they complete with very personal sensitive data they are probably the best party to entrust with the process.

Could any organisation guarantee no massacre would ever happen again?
 
i have owned firearms for fifty years and never felt the police were nit picking or unreasonable. Yes timescales have become much longer than is satisfactory. Given the nature of the checks they complete with very personal sensitive data they are probably the best party to entrust with the process.

Could any organisation guarantee no massacre would ever happen again?
(Traffic) police don't issue driving licences

Home office don't issue passports

NHS does not handle the register of medical practitioners

None of these things are quite the same but it is more usual to have an independent specific statutory body (DVLA/UK Passport Office /GMC etc) to handle individual certification and licencing and they seem to handle sensitive data as well as can be expected
 
i have owned firearms for fifty years and never felt the police were nit picking or unreasonable. Yes timescales have become much longer than is satisfactory. Given the nature of the checks they complete with very personal sensitive data they are probably the best party to entrust with the process.

Could any organisation guarantee no massacre would ever happen again?
Count yourself lucky, but as regards massacres it looks like except for corruption/paedophile rings all the other events appear to be down to lack of mandatory professional training and qualifications of FLD staff. Incidentally the despite the new fees none of it is dedicated specifically to FLDs to improve the quality, professionalism and efficiency of their staff
 
Count yourself lucky, but as regards massacres it looks like except for corruption/paedophile rings all the other events appear to be down to lack of mandatory professional training and qualifications of FLD staff. Incidentally the despite the new fees none of it is dedicated specifically to FLDs to improve the quality, professionalism and efficiency of their staff
have you read the Plymouth Keyham ?

As the police missed the opportunity in 2020 to stop the shootings when he assaulted two children, yes the FELU failed but so did the Police and possibly government as apparently due to Covid the Police were downgrading some offences, which normally would have seen him if far more serious trouble with the law.



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