Sika origins

[NickJ]

I wonder if any one actually knows if any of the Sika in the GB are actually Manchurian? There is rumour that our local herd is but it originates (as so many do) from the Powerscourt Park C19 Irish stock of which I can find no reference to there ever being Manchurian there? Thanks.

 

[paul k]

I wonder if any one actually knows if any of the Sika in the GB are actually Manchurian? There is rumour that our local herd is but it originates (as so many do) from the Powerscourt Park C19 Irish stock of which I can find no reference to there ever being Manchurian there? Thanks.

I don't know where you are located but, as far as any of the books record, the Powerscourt sika were Japanese but they hydridized with the local Wicklow reds which might result in a bigger deer that would give rise to speculation about the sika being of Manchurian stock.

If you read the acknowledged experts like G. Kenneth Whitehead and Peter Carne the general understanding is that all wild Sika in GB are from the Japanese sub-species however there is some speculation that those in the Forest of Bowland in Lancs. might carry some Manchurian blood because of their generally larger size than sika elsewhere in the UK and hybridization with reds is probably not an issue there.

Those in Scotland, New Forest, Dorset and Ireland (North and South) are probably Japanese (C. Nippon nippon)

 

[Muddy]

Sika deer forest of bowland

i have been trying to trace the history of sika in the uk for a long while .I have just been given a copy of DEER magazine February 1973 the arrival of Sika in 1904-1906 by lord Ribbledale of gisburn park master of Queens Buckhound was responsible for sika being introduced in conjunction with capt Ormerod of wyresdale lodge .The deer were kept in paddocks and taken to the hunting grounds in vans and released ahead of the hounds . It is generally considered the Japanese species which were released were to slow for the hounds and were replaced by Manchurian sika the estate was broken up and no written records exist today . The ribbledale buckhounds were disbanded in 1919 .This is an extract from the world of Bowland Sika by MR J Robinson A.M.Inst.W.P. C This is an extract from the book in front of me hope this sheds some light on the subject

 

[Stiller]

I wonder if any one actually knows if any of the Sika in the GB are actually Manchurian? There is rumour that our local herd is but it originates (as so many do) from the Powerscourt Park C19 Irish stock of which I can find no reference to there ever being Manchurian there? Thanks.

The only way to really prove it is with DNA testing

 

[Muddy]

DNA testing of sika

The only dna testing i know of was taken from the herd of Sika at DAWYCK in peebleshire . This herd was established in the early 19 hundreds and over the years escaped to Stobbo next door and today form the basis of the population in the borders . Dna was taken from these to see if they were true Japanese apparently they are .Stags weigh up to 55 kgs dressed out hinds 35 kgs dressed out these are my own weight ranges taken from animals shot by myself and son in the last few years in the area and on Dawyck estate the original release site

 

[paul k]

I've just been re-reading Peter Carne's book and he reckons that there are some sika of the Formosan sub species in Wychwood Forest. They escaped from Charlbury Park.

 

[Stiller]

Re: DNA testing of sika

The only dna testing i know of was taken from the herd of Sika at DAWYCK in peebleshire . This herd was established in the early 19 hundreds and over the years escaped to Stobbo next door and today form the basis of the population in the borders . Dna was taken from these to see if they were true Japanese apparently they are .Stags weigh up to 55 kgs dressed out hinds 35 kgs dressed out these are my own weight ranges taken from animals shot by myself and son in the last few years in the area and on Dawyck estate the original release site

I know the area and those two estates very well indeed. Having shot on both over the years.

 

[paul k]

Re: Sika deer forest of bowland

i have been trying to trace the history of sika in the uk for a long while .I have just been given a copy of DEER magazine February 1973 the arrival of Sika in 1904-1906 by lord Ribbledale of gisburn park master of Queens Buckhound was responsible for sika being introduced in conjunction with capt Ormerod of wyresdale lodge .The deer were kept in paddocks and taken to the hunting grounds in vans and released ahead of the hounds . It is generally considered the Japanese species which were released were to slow for the hounds and were replaced by Manchurian sika the estate was broken up and no written records exist today . The ribbledale buckhounds were disbanded in 1919 .This is an extract from the world of Bowland Sika by MR J Robinson A.M.Inst.W.P. C This is an extract from the book in front of me hope this sheds some light on the subject

You will find Deer of Britain and Ireland by Peter Carne and The Whitehead Encyclopaedia of Deer by G. Kenneth Whitehead good sources of info on sika introductions.

 

[300wsm]

 

[NickJ]

Many thanks everyone for your replies. I am indeed referring especially to the Gisburn population. I had heard the same story about Lord Ribblesdale's from a descendant of his - apparently they just headed for thick cover - the hunting was a disaster! It was the fact that - he bought them from out of the park so, if within the confines of the park there were only pure Nippon then the Forest of Bowland population must surely be Japanese?

 

[300wsm]

xxxxxxxxxxxx

 

[NickJ]

Thanks for that, a good tip - I think I'll need some more X binos!

 

[sikamalc]

300wsn is right about the colour of the velvet, but Manchurian are also slightly bulkier in build than a Jap, and the antlers on a Jap tend to be more straight up than a Manchurian, which lay out to the side slightly.

In Scotland where I have my lease, the Japs all originate from a deer farm that went bust during the WWI and I believe again in WWII. They are all Japs, there are no Manchurian.

On the area I have in Dorset, thay are again all Japs, I am not aware of any Manchurian blood lines. Cornbury Park does have Formosan Sika, and I have no doubt that some may have escaped into the local area. Sika are hard to keep in or out at the best of times, and I have personally seen a Sika Stag jump a 6ft deer fence without any problem.

 

[NickJ]

Based on visual evidence alone from experienced locals I gather the Bowland Sika must be Japanese.