So, how did you get into stalking?

[foxinmad]

For me, it started roughly 46 years ago when I used to go for my holidays, weekends at my grans that was approximately 12 miles from where I lived, I ran about with a lad called George who had ferrets and that's where I started learning about ferreting, snaring and air rifles. There were masses of open ground all around us and when we were out, we were out for most of the day every day.
My older cousin had a lurcher that I used to take with us with the ferrets for the ones that managed to get through the nets and I think that's the time when I started my love affair with working dogs, jump a couple of years and my two uncles used to do a bit rough shooting on land at the other side of the village where my gran lived, so we would be walking down the main street armed to the teeth lol.
My uncle used to buy his shotguns out of the catalog and pay it up x amount of £ss per week, changed days now! I used to sit and study the catalog and say to him get that one next. When we went out shooting I used to want to carry the gun for him unloaded then after time I used to get a shot at the rabbits, I can remember it was a Franchi auto and weighed a tonne for me at the time.
My first gun was an air rifle can't remember the make but it cost me £4 then and I had to pay it back to the lad weekly out my pocket money.
My old man's cousin used to do a lot of shooting then and there was a local clay pigeon club that he and a few others to run for themselves and I got into working the clay traps for them with another lad, my pay was at the end of the evening's clay shoot we got a go with the shotguns and they worked the traps.
I started working 16 yo and then by 17 I was into motorbikes, still got one yet then by 20 I was a dadhaha.
My own place to live and then it was terrier work for a couple of years and that followed on to putting in for a shotgun cert, done a bit clay shooting and a lot of pigeon shooting then, I started doing a lot of fox control with hounds on foot for a lot of years so I bought a 3" magnum over and under for heavy loads sold that and bought a 3 1/2" magnum auto and still have that now.
Put in for fac and bought a 243, through an invite on grounds I started deer stalking, all Roe and I got the bug, 243 got punted and I bought a 6.5x55 Sako 75 still got that also, then I was back shooting vermin so bought a Tikka 595 22/250 and I use that for day time shooting and for use with my thermal.
I fancied another rifle for a bit longer range stuff varmints and metal plates so I bought a 6.5x47 and have been having fun with that one
I still love shooting but I seem to enjoy working and exercising my hounds that bit more now, they take up loads of my time but once normal life returns after the current Covid restrictions are lifted I will get out with the rifles more.
Bit long-winded but it sums up when and how I got the shooting bug.
Cheers

 

[opticron1]

Started playing with things going bang as a kid, my Grandfather was of the generation that spent a lot of time in India, Africa and Europe on "business" - he managed to squeeze his guns in whenever he was away and managed to shoot quite a variety of beasties including leopard and tiger (off the back of an elephant), but this was loooooong ago! My dad was more into fishing and occasional stalking (japs first and then deer/antelope for the mess after that - oh yeah and Thursday in India was stray dog day to keep the rabies down!). I concentrated more on fishing until ten or twelve years ago when the keepers on the river I was on, suggested I came out with them.... After a great day on the hill, took an old switch - so old, that one of the boys said it died of shock before the bullet hit it! After that, hooked and continued with occasional Roe deer and an annual stag if I can find enough loose change down the side of the settee to pay for it. Love the social side of stalking and the time on the hill is never wasted.

 

[User00033]

My maternal grandfather.

He was an engineer who built the innards of hydro dams, and travelled the colonies post-war. New Zealand, Tasmania and Canada for the most part, with consulting gigs in Africa and elsewhere. He was an utter scoundrel and had three families who all loved him dearly.

Grandpa retired in the 70s and took up where he left off in the UK, remarkably with my Grandma who was impervious to his philandering. Grandpa had hunted the world, and set up in Rowhook near Horsham, and applied his enviable skills to the deer of Sussex, and various counties to the north, travelling in a Ford Granada estate which he had for almost 30 years. He spent 3-4 months of every year overseas and took me on my first major trip, to South Africa in 1977. I was so in awe of this man that if he said “we’re going to break into Buckingham Palace tonight”, I would have, gladly. But that wasn’t his style, instead he taught me first, to love & respect women, second, how to shoot vermin, and thirdly how to shoot a centrefire at deer. He also encouraged me to bugger off and see the world as soon as I was old enough, so I did.

You already know that his cartridge of choice was the .243 Winchester and that he eschewed anything older than 1950, being a modern man and keen consumer of anything “new”. He would have absolutely loved the 6.5 Creedmoor, and happily grown the tactical beard to go with it. He hated traditional stalking etiquette and the nonsense (and clothing) that went with it, and laughed at the tweedie types with their polished stocks. His was a slightly rough and ready style, but he shot five times more wild game than anyone else and could afford to be as non-conformist as he liked.

I am not a chip off the old block in any way. For example, I only have one family.

 

[opticron1]

My maternal grandfather.

He was an engineer who built the innards of hydro dams, and travelled the colonies post-war. New Zealand, Tasmania and Canada for the most part, with consulting gigs in Africa and elsewhere. He was an utter scoundrel and had three families who all loved him dearly.

Grandpa retired in the 70s and took up where he left off in the UK, remarkably with my Grandma who was impervious to his philandering. Grandpa had hunted the world, and set up in Rowhook near Horsham, and applied his enviable skills to the deer of Sussex, and various counties to the north, travelling in a Ford Granada estate which he had for almost 30 years. He spent 3-4 months of every year overseas and took me on my first major trip, to South Africa in 1977. I was so in awe of this man that if he said “we’re going to break into Buckingham Palace tonight”, I would have, gladly. But that wasn’t his style, instead he taught me first, to love & respect women, second, how to shoot vermin, and thirdly how to shoot a centrefire at deer. He also encouraged me to bugger off and see the world as soon as I was old enough, so I did.

You already know that his cartridge of choice was the .243 Winchester and that he eschewed anything older than 1950, being a modern man and keen consumer of anything “new”. He would have absolutely loved the 6.5 Creedmoor, and happily grown the tactical beard to go with it. He hated traditional stalking etiquette and the nonsense (and clothing) that went with it, and laughed at the tweedie types with their polished stocks. His was a slightly rough and ready style, but he shot five times more wild game than anyone else and could afford to be as non-conformist as he liked.

I am not a chip off the old block in any way. For example, I only have one family.

Funny, your comment about the Hydro schemes! That's what my Grandpa was tied up with when he was gallivanting around the world as well as in the Highlands. I suspect he was a few years before your Grandpa, but it's funny how hydro schemes and valve engineering allowed such globe trotting!

 

[finnbear270]

A teenaged me in 1969, with a brand new Diana .177 I think it was, last two years of school I only attended Thursdays & Fridays (Tech drawing / Woodwork / Metalwork ), the rest ... up the railway bankings with the rifle - two tins pellets & a butty , next, lamping Fox with a s/s 10 bore ... wet battery & a Barbour with pockets like a keep net, .22 Rimfire CZ bunny clearance .. .243 Sako for Foxing moving on into large eatable things like Deer, .. went a couple of times on the Galloway scheme in Glen Luce, that B.A.S.C. ran, until the place was trashed for windfarming, L1 with David Stretton, Registered L2, my first Reds with Griff & Bob on the earliest Arran schemes ( A Major learning curve)my earnest thanks to Griff,.... N.R.A R.C.O...more stalking with Mike Flyboy .270, again more learning, L2 achieved (7 stalks witnessed), Driven Boar in Germany multiple trips also taking Deer on the drives, currently a few years membership of Greenfield DMG. Heres hoping I get to continue.

 

[Yorkie]

Hi Lads.
Always enjoyed shooting as a lad. I had to be pretty covert about it as my dad would not allow guns. Borrowed air rifle and a walk out with a neighbour farmer, that kind of thing. Started shooting pistols and always attended the Anno Domini meetings at Bisley. Got chatting to a guy who was also a Deer Stalker. I always presumed that Stalking was a hugely expensive thing and reserved only for the very rich/toffs. He explained it most certainly was not and gave me a contact.

When Pistols were banned I bought a Tikka 6.5 swede. I got in touch with the contact and shot my first Deer, a Roe Buck, back in 99 if memory serves. The bug well and truly bit me and here we are now. I was lucky to have got involved with a couple of really experienced lads who took me under their wing and really helped me learn.

 

[HappyHunter]

In my earlier years fishing was my main hobby. Mostly course, progressing into sea and lure fishing. A few air rifles along the way. Only in recent years did I join a club and pester one of the members for an outing vermin shooting. He hasn't got rid of me since. He's now a good friend and has kindly taken me under his wing passing on what he knows. This has led to more good fortune and I'm lucky enough to have a couple of small permissions and plenty enough chances to get out and live the lifestyle I enjoy.

 

[geoshot]

I got into stalking kinda by accident - and it was a long & convoluted path, so bear with me please.

As a kid I developed a strong addiction to fishing, hardly surprising as my father and both grandfathers were keen anglers and all three of them were keen flyfishers
I'm glad that they were also dead keen to get me started on fishing too.
I started out on what is probably a fairly typical path; using handlines at the local pier, doing a bit of float fishing, eventually getting into bigger stuff after I'd learned the basics. Oh, and mackerel trips during the summer, surely most folk do that?
I caught my first "real" fish - a perch, when floatfishing on the River Maine near to where it flows into Lough Neagh - I was fishing there cos my grandfather worked as a gardener when he got too old to work as a rivetter in "The Yard", which tied, eventually, into how I discovered deer stalking.

I grew up just outside Belfast during what became known as The Troubles, so acquiring a firearm legally was a complicated exercise - even air rifles required an FAC, so it wasn't easy for a kid like me to go shooting as hiding in bushes, sneaking about, wearing cammo could attract all sorts of unwelcome attention in those times.
The three men already mentioned were also keen shooters, but that activity was a little more difficult to get a kid into than fishing
But my dad eventually managed to get hold of a BSA Meteor .177 air rifle for me & got me sorted with an FAC too as soon as I turned 14.
Gradually I became more interested in shooting. Slowly I moved from ratting, roost shooting pigeons, picking off rabbits and the occasional pheasant to getting my first shotgun (a single barrel Baikal 12 bore), but by this stage I hadn't even heard of deer stalking, in fact at that time I wasn't even aware that there were any deer in Ireland never mind that the opportunity to shoot one might be a possibility.

I kept at the shooting, usually a few walked up pheasant days and a couple of days after snipe with a fair bit of crow & pigeon shotting into my 20's when I joined the police, picking up a .22LR rifle along the way.
There I learnt how to shoot rifles, mostly SLR, mini-14 & various bits H&K kit, but I was also issued a .308 bolt action (firstly a 700 then an early version of an Interceptor) when I underwent various bits of marksmanship training.
I found that I really enjoyed rifle practice, apparently was reasonably good at it so I was designated as a weapons maintenance officer which meant I got even more chance to shoot. The job wasn't all bad
During that time I was also detailed occasionally to guard VIP's and on one occasion met some of the Earl of Antrim's family, on whose land I had caught my first perch.
It turned out that my granda had worked as a gardener on their estate.
So me and the staff got to talking about his time there, one thing lead to another and as a thank you for my time looking after the the Earl I was invited to come to the estate and shoot a deer.
I had to borrow a rifle to do that, a Parker-Hale 1200 in .308 - which went on to become my first centrefire rifle - I wish I had never sold it - and my first deer was a park fallow deer, I wish I had kept the head. It was only a pricket and I knew feck all about trophies in those days, all I was interested in was getting some of the venison - I'd been reared to shoot for the pot after all.
A few years later while I was guarding the Duke of Abercorn I was invited to shoot a Sika on his estate, and that was the first deer I shot with my own rifle.
During that time I also shot feral goats in various parts of Northern Ireland using that old P-H, I even shot a Red deer on a bit of ground in Fermanagh (but I think Reds are protected in NI now).

Being injured in a car bomb explosion, recovery from that, medical discharge, re-training, divorce, change of job, working on the rigs etc kinda got in the way of shooting and even my fishing time took a hit.
However, when I moved permanently to what we in Norn Irn affectionately know as "The Mainland" one of the first things I did was get me an FAC and bought a shotgun and a rifle
I shot my first English deer, a little 6-pt roebuck, on the Cranborne Chases in Dorset and since that first one I've gone on to shoot all six species in the UK and via the sport I've gone on to meet a load of good folk, some of whom have become dear friends too - quite a few via this site (thanks Malc)

Sometimes, when I'm looking out from a high seat or lurking in the shadows during a foray after deer I think back to that day when my dad & grandad took me along to a job they had to do, placing me safely by the river and letting me occupy myself with a spot of fishing. I owe them a lot for that and it makes me happy to think that that day lead me, however circuitously, into another sport/hobby that now makes up such an important part of my life.

An accident, maybe, but a happy one

(as an aside, typing this up has just made me realise how much feckin time I have on my hands right now )

 

[Feugh]

I've really enjoyed these stories about how people have started stalking, some of which are really fascinating and show a lifetimes involvement in country sports. However, there must be many nowadays who have come much later to stalking and have no family fieldsports background.
To an extent I am one of them. My parents were very anti-gun (and stayed that way until I got one. Now they're OK about it) and so shooting didn't happen for me until much later. My step-grandad fished occasionally but not much, my parents not at all. However, from an early age I had a burning desire to be outside fishing. My Dad knew nothing about fishing but still, bless him, took me out to trout fisheries when I was young and on camping trips to west Scotland hill lochs. My lack of success never put me off - I just wanted to fish, and fly fish in particular. I also really wanted to shoot, but apart from a bit of rifle shooting with scouts I didn't manage that. I can't explain why I wanted to fish and shoot so much - I just did and that has never changed. When I couldn't fish I snared rabbits and roasted them on sticks in the woods.
Fishing took a back seat when I was in my late teens and early twenties. For me it wasn't beer that took my attention, it was sport (triathlon). In the off-season I went cod fishing from the shore and from boats, with decent success and ate what I caught, but sport took most of my time. In my mid twenties I stopped competitive sport, went on a nine-month bender to catch up on the partying I'd missed (happy days) and then met the lady that became my wife. I fished a lot, both for trout and for cod, and then I met a guy at work who owned a stretch of the River Feugh (a tributary of the Dee), which I've fished ever since. I also got hold of an air-rifle, learnt how to shoot and started taking rabbits for one of the local farmers (all for the pot. My kids were making bunny burgers with me by the time they were three).
In 2013 the numbers of salmon returning to the Dee started to drop, and with that my desire to fish for them every spare minute dropped too, so I decided to get an FAC so that I could control the rabbit numbers more effectively and still spend all my time outdoors. I discovered that a friend was in to stalking and he took me along for a couple of days hind shooting on Glentromie estate, close to Aviemore, and it was one of the best weekends I've ever had. A complete eye-opener for me. Soon afterwards I passed my DSC1, got my FAC, bought a 25-06 from a member here and managed to get permission to shoot rabbits and deer on another farm. Stalking for me has always been about the food aspect - I enjoy the butchery and cooking as well as the stalking and therefore the size of the antlers on a roe buck wasn't something that I fussed over. The first roe buck I ever shot was a gold medal and at that stage I didn't really understand the significance.
So, I have much, much less experience than many on here but I love stalking all the same. Apart from anything else, it gives me another reason to be outside and there's some good food at the end of it.

 

[Pine Marten]

I've really enjoyed these stories about how people have started stalking, some of which are really fascinating and show a lifetimes involvement in country sports. However, there must be many nowadays who have come much later to stalking and have no family fieldsports background.

You're not alone, and what you say about feeling the urge to catch and eat things, seemingly coming from nowhere, certainly resonates with my experience. I grew up in big cities, but always spent some of the summer in the mountains in Alsace, where my grandmother has a small place. When I was maybe 4 or 5 years old, my mother had a migraine one afternoon and sent me out with a makeshift fishing rod to the stream outside. The river was generous and gave me a small trout. That was it, basically. It would years before I caught another, but fishing was all I wanted to do from then on. However, mostly, I couldn't, I didn't live in the right place and had no-one to take me. That stayed with me, and towards about 12, I started doing a lot of daydreaming about hunting. I had no way of getting into it though. So I did the next best thing: bought all the books and magazines I could. In particular, I have one called "Learning to Shoot" by the late John Humphreys (he signed it for me many years later) in which he explained how I should volunteer to help farmers with pest control, assist in the beating line, knock on doors and so on. There were precious few local farmers in West London though. And I still didn't know anyone who shot, or anyone who knew anyone who shot. I did manage to start doing some serious fly fishing over those years though. Anyway, armed with a huge amount of theoretical knowledge, and having spent a lot of time working on my parents and anyone else who cared, I managed to be taken to the CLA Game Fair for the first time, speak to some people who were ACTUALLY involved in fieldsports. My parents weren't opposed to any of this, they could see I was serious and that it was a healthy interest, it's just that it was alien to them. But at 17 I applied for an SGC, and a year later bought a Brno side by side with my savings (still have it). I joined the rifle club at university with a couple of friends, with the stated objective of campaigning to make them organise clay shooting trips, which worked, and that's also where I made lifelong friends, some of whom I continue to cajole into occasionally shooting with me. At about 20, a bloke who fancied my sister invited me on his shoot, and although I could see it was awful, I had at least, finally, taken my first genuine steps into hunting. One of the guys from the rifle club had grown up on a farm in Norfolk, and a couple of roughshooting and duck flighting weekends materialised. Then turned out another one had parents with a small driven shoot and they started putting on an annual day for his birthday, to which he invited us. That lasted a decade.

But the game changer was the Internet. Suddenly I had other people to talk to, and in 2007 I joined the Kent Wildfowlers, and did 7 seasons there, uselessly, however I did have access to a few woods, and not having a dog, I got into stalking woodcock. I kept bumping into deer as I did so, and then had a lightbulb moment. 2011 I started the FAC process, went on a few exploratory stalks with kind people from SD, bought a rifle, and in 2012, I shot my first deer with SikaMalc. So, you know, it took 32 years to get into stalking in the end....

 

[NickJ]

I've enjoyed reading these stories.

For me it was through my grandfather, he had some wee farms in East Galloway that he and his brother had planted up in the 50s, he was also one of three tenants on a small deer forest in the Inner Hebrides (in the days they just split the costs) so magical holidays were spent with him, I think I was about 5 the first time I went with him after roe and maybe 8 on the hill. He brought a 7x57 Mauser back from Uganda and used it until he died.

My father was in the Royal Navy so it meant we lived near the south coast (when not overseas) but I was lucky that through his first boss we rented a house on his large estate in Hampshire. The grounds were big enough to warrant a Weihrauch .177 air rifle and my favourite sport was stalking rabbits - I guess that is where I got it from! I loved all nature and met the 'keepers there and spent all of my spare time beating and helping them including accompanying the roe stalker who was a friend of the Headkeeper's, it was alive with roe! (Later on a famous chef rented the stalking for many thousands of pounds)

I inherited my grandfather's BSA 12 bore but was always more interested in deer and stalking. I shot my first roe at 12 in Galloway and first stag on the hill at 14 I still have the roe head but the stags head got lost in one of many house moves.

I was obsessed and read every deer book I could and especially loved Richard Prior's, I was lucky to meet him once or twice and his advice on entering a profession with deer was 'get qualified, I know because I am not!' When still at school I managed to blag a spot as 'gofer' on the first ever Advanced Deer Stalking Certificate course organised by Dieter Dent at Stockbridge, I made the tea and changed the targets! The speakers were some of the leading authorities on deer in the UK and Gods in my eyes and they also had to sit the exam, I was even more determined to work with wildlife.

After military school, much to my parents dismay... I worked for a year as a trainee gamekeeper and then a year as a trainee warden/woodman with the National Trust, I took both roles based on the fact they would let me help with the deer management! At 17 I had bought a BSA Monarch .243 and inherited a Mannlicher Schoenauer .22.250.

In 1990 I attended Sparsholt College for three years studying the Game & Wildlife Diploma but spent most of my time stalking and lamping! I spent my (6 and 9 month) placements with the FC (wildlife rangers) and then joined the FC when I graduated, at the same time studying for my Forestry (ICF) exams. My first role was as a trainee ranger (or keeper as they are known there) in the New Forest, it was my first choice as they had four (now five) species of deer there and it was a fascinating role. My dream had come true!

 

[willie_gunn]

About 30 years ago my wife and I were invited by a friend to join a party who had been renting a lodge in Sutherland for years.

We went for the salmon fishing, but I was then asked whether I would like to go stalking too. Having never done it I decided to give it a go. After some shots on the zeroing target the stalker took me out and we stalked into what I now recognise was a real "switchy beast". I was then unsure whether I could bring myself to take the shot, as it was the first time it really dawned on me that this beautiful animal I was looking at through the scope was going to die as a result of my actions. However the stalker had told me the day before about how they managed the deer on the estate, and assured me that it was a good animal to take, so I took the shot.

That led to over 20 years going up to stalk on that particular estate, which remains my favourite place in the world.

One of the same party managed deer on about 3,000 hectares down South, and asked me if I'd like to give roe stalking a try. The result was my first roe - a buck taken from a high seat during the rut. That then led to decades of involvement in stalking that took me on a journey through DSC1, DSC2, the Deer Manager's course, HAD, AW, guiding, trophy measuring, stick & knifemaking (what to do with all that antler!) and photography.

Basically that first stalk on a switchy beast has resulted in a lifetime's passion for all things deer!

 

[Ronin]

Could you elude to more information about the contractors - sounds very interesting

 

[TURNBOLT]

I was allowed an air rifle (BSA Meteor)in1958 .I eventually progressed through 410,12bore,22lr to a Centrefire in 1972.The head keeper of a near by estate asked would I consider helping him cull the fallow deer.My boss owned an estate in Aberdeenshire and asked if I would like to go there.I have been going up for 30 years now and having made friends with other keepers I get to go on other estates.I have been very fortunate,I was taught to Stalk ,Shoot and Gralloch properly.72 now but still love going out to shoot a deer or fox with a rifle.

 

[gonzo]

Originally from a market town and plenty of time spent as a kid sculking around the countryside. But never really in the sporting circles.
Other than my father who did a bit of clay shooting in the 70's, no one in my family shot, and certainly not live quarry. I still get disapproval from them, as it's wrong to kill animals, and you should get your meat from the supermarket..... They like to live in that little bubble of denial.
Was target shooting and generally playing with guns for 30-odd years. And other than the odd rabit with an airgun, or pigeon with a shotgun, mostly only shooting paper/clay.
Have lived in a big urban town now for the last 25years.

But around three years ago, a few shooting friends were chatting, and a few of us had been sort of half interested about deer stalking, and talked each other into having a go.
So we all did our DSC1 and booked on various stalks.
I've been out on half a dozen paid stalks, and about the same on some land that I have permission on. Finally managed to take a roe doe late last year. Butchered it myself and only just finished eating it.

I am only likely to shoot for the freezer. But really enjoying the journey so far.
And when my FAC renewal comes back, I should have an open condition. So a bit more flexability.

 

[Ronin]

Stalking was a natural progression for me from rough shooting on local farms with air rifle and shotgun and shooting pistols at a target club (sadly no more)

I started helping on an estate where three species of deer resided and was asked one day by the stalker if I’d like to come along

I was hooked from there on in

Took my DsC level 1 in 2000 with John Cubby, Norman Healey and Nigel Pickering during which I began to learn properly about deer and managing them successfully

I then went on to share the stalking on an estate with one of my DSC 1 tutors for a number of years and continued to learn

DSC 2 was a natural progression some time ago

In between then and now I help run a syndicate providing stalking, continue managing the deer on an estate with a trusted friend and also share some land with a few others working as a team for the landowner conducting deer management, where a 70% reduction in damage has been achieved following scientific analysis

I have worked and continue to do so on part time basis as a member of a specialist culling team for several years and am fortunate to work along side some of the most knowledgable people in the field today

We have worked in some very interesting places and under extremely testing conditions to achieve a goal

Deer remain a fascinating part of my life - it’s a shame the same cannot be said if some of the “characters” one comes into contact with in the deer world - some very underhand individuals who will do anything to “get what you have “

Be very careful whom you seek advice from or trust is one thing I have learned over the years in this game

 

[Magnificent 7]

got in to stalking as a child through a family friend and been addicted ever since got to agree with poster above be careful who you trust we have had alsorts tried on us.From people abusing there positions to try and take your permision to one guy befriending all the local gamekeepers through his job and then not happy with getting his foot in the door for deer jumping into the bed with one of there wives getting caught and then reporting the keeper for losing his head who then lost his firearms and job my advice would be to stick to it on your own guard what you have and keep a close eye on everything and anyone

 

[Ronin]

Sounds fascinating if factually correct - is there much stalking in the Settle area

 

[Magnificent 7]

There are little pockets of Roe here and there a few on our farm decent sized animals but fairly poor heads a lot syndicated though I think A1 decoys have a lot of the bigger forests. I've some reds nearer hellifield and also some sika over towards wrathmell but to be honest there few and far between on my land I know there is more further over in the trough but again I think that's a stitched up job.The fascinating story as you say isn't as such tbh it's pretty awful and factually true but public forums like this aren't for arguments there meant for peoples enjoyment a bit like our chosen sports all the best Baron