So . . . .

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All empires fall. As do, eventually, all "Bund" or "League". How long the EU will last I don't know. But for the moment I think the UK is better out than in. But in a hundred years time I'm sure that the EU will be as obsolete as CENTO, SEATO, the Hanseatic League, the Famous Five and the Confederation of the Rhine. But now isn't the time to leave with a No Deal...we'd be better presently if we are to leave with a Norway EEA agreement.

i'm of the opinion that the eu is a failing project and in my opinion it will fail soon and when/if it does there will be trade deals to be made. you only have to look at things objectively to see that the eu isn't doing very well. if you treat It like a business if you have parts that are being propped up by other departments earnings you either need to bring the failing department up to speed or cut it loose , as we cannot control those parts of the eu and have given it a good go funding them in the meantime I think in the absence of dictating where our money goes our next best option is to leave and keep our money and use it ourselves to our own benefit , selfish I know but its a dog eat dog world sadly.
 
I saw the latest Weatherspoons pub chain magazine flyer today.
They stated in it that they will no longer stock any Euro products
A world of taste awaits as we scrap EU brands.
Some peoples xenophobic colours are showing up clearer now.
Seems a short sighted global warming disaster in waiting by adding to ships air pollution levels.

All European tourists visiting UK should retaliate by keeping away from them IMO.
But, what about importing of :-
Brussels sprouts.
Frankfurters.
Camembert.
Grey Goose vodka as it is made in France.
Ikea.
Most good cars?
Tikka.
Sako.
RWS.
ETC.

Now only 64 days to go till the mooring is slipped.
 
I saw the latest Weatherspoons pub chain magazine flyer today.
They stated in it that they will no longer stock any Euro products
A world of taste awaits as we scrap EU brands.
Some peoples xenophobic colours are showing up clearer now.
Seems a short sighted global warming disaster in waiting by adding to ships air pollution levels.

All European tourists visiting UK should retaliate by keeping away from them IMO.
But, what about importing of :-
Brussels sprouts.
Frankfurters.
Camembert.
Grey Goose vodka as it is made in France.
Ikea.
Most good cars?
Tikka.
Sako.
RWS.
ETC.

Now only 64 days to go till the mooring is slipped.
Only 64 day to go but the Politicians have stated they won't sit at the weekends and Fridays are out as well. So in reality only approx. 47 days to go !! What was it about Rome (Home) burning !!
 
Only 64 day to go but the Politicians have stated they won't sit at the weekends and Fridays are out as well. So in reality only approx. 47 days to go !! What was it about Rome (Home) burning !!
Yeah amazing isn't it only a few weeks until our politicians say the stinky will hit the fan but they're not going to put in extra effort to try sort out the mess they say we're going to be in. .. bizarre if you ask me..
 
I saw the latest Weatherspoons pub chain magazine flyer today.
They stated in it that they will no longer stock any Euro products his is a private enterprise he can stock what he likes and the market will dictate how successful that decision is
A world of taste awaits as we scrap EU brands.

Some peoples xenophobic colours are showing up clearer now. not sure where you get that from but , whatever !
Seems a short sighted global warming disaster in waiting by adding to ships air pollution levels. wanna explain this in the context of using more home grown products?

All European tourists visiting UK should retaliate by keeping away from them IMO. goodo , smaller ques at the bar and the eu tourists will miss out on 'value' food and drink !
But, what about importing of :- what about it ?
Brussels sprouts. I can grow them here , no biggy if I can manage it, so i'd say our farmers will and my life will go on without the little green fart bombs
Frankfurters. you mean sausages , already got them !
Camembert. oh , cheese ? yeah pretty sure we make a fair bit of that ?
Grey Goose vodka as it is made in France. we have plenty of british drinks as we invented binge drinking
Ikea. stay or go we will manage without cheap Scandinavian furniture and they are struggling anyway because they didn't keep up with online shopping trend !
Most good cars? I reckon the japs are gagging to import their cars so the ball is in Germanys court if they want to play silly buggers but i'll guess they will still sell to us ?
Tikka. alternatives all available
Sako. ditto
RWS. ditto
ETC. etc !

Now only 64 days to go till the mooring is slipped. 64 tedious days of listening to defeatist remoaners project fear false predictions
 
I saw the latest Weatherspoons pub chain magazine flyer today.
They stated in it that they will no longer stock any Euro products
A world of taste awaits as we scrap EU brands.
Some peoples xenophobic colours are showing up clearer now.

Huh? The refrendum, most posts on this thread and all leave discussions in which I am involved are an emphatic rejection of the EU. There are zero references to ethnic groups in Europe. A leave EU position is NOT a xenophobic position. For most leave folk, the following is a good tag line: "Love Europe, Hate the EU".

Multiple nations within the EU's vice grip are rejecting that jackboot crushing plutocracy, not their love of neighbouring states. They want alliance, not subjugation. The peoples of Europe want nation state identity and self-determination. There is zero race hate in wanting that.
 
Side note: I keep my MP's mailbox full. Today he advised me that he is receiving unprecedented levels of feedback re Brexit. To date, only one third of his mail indicate they would rather remain. That suggests that the Leave contingent has grown since the 2016 referendum. Which is not something Remain folk would have you believe.

Frankly, anyone watching the EU bashing of Spain, Greece, Poland, Hungary, Austria and multiple same-issue referenda forced on the Netherlands and Eire, is it any wonder folk now see the EU as toxic? They are not some benign trading block. They are not democratic. They are dangerous bullies and under them we will not prosper.
 
I've just joined and brexit is on here too God. As the comment we now know what we're voting for 2nd ref losers vote. I knew the first time I am a adult. Leave means leave everything!
 
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Side note: I keep my MP's mailbox full. Today he advised me that he is receiving unprecedented levels of feedback re Brexit. To date, only one third of his mail indicate they would rather remain. That suggests that the Leave contingent has grown since the 2016 referendum. Which is not something Remain folk would have you believe.

In your area, quite possibly, or at least positions have hardened. In mine, it is the exact same situation, only the other way. A pattern repeated in many places. Doesn't bode well for whatever outcome.
 
The fact there is never consensus on big political issues is precisely why we have democracy. Otherwise we'd just allow self-appointed experts to do our thinking for us..

The problem with Brexit is not that there is no consensus - there was never going to be and it is futile to pursue something that cannot be obtained - but that having resolved to settle the matter in a democratic vote, our political establishment is refusing to implement the result. All kinds of hysterical and bogus objections are being raised, but in the end, if we ignore the vested interest arguments of corporate placemen like the odious, shameless and incompetent Philip Hammond, it all comes down collective Stockholm Syndrome. With a few honourable exceptions, our politicians and their cheerleaders are afraid of independence and the responsibility of self-governance because very few of them have ever had to do it in their lifetime and the prospect of stepping out blinking into the sunlight terrifies them so they cling to the skirts of their captor and rage against the electorate for exposing them to the peril of freedom.

The thing is, just because they are weak and craven, pessimistic, unimaginative and backward looking, doesn't mean the rest of us are or that we should be dragged down by inferior minds and condemned to remain shackled to the past. It is time for a cleaning of the stables.
 
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Anyone who is afraid of leaving the EU is no different from a prisoner leaving jail after a decade or two inside, completely institutionalized and needing someone else to make their decisions for them.
 
Anyone who is afraid of leaving the EU is no different from a prisoner leaving jail after a decade or two inside, completely institutionalized and needing someone else to make their decisions for them.
Just so we're clear: I'm not primarily scared of leaving the EU. I'm actively in favour of not only staying in, but being a far more active participant. Boom.
 
This summarises the issues for the conflicted far better than I ever could .......



The ‘will of the people’ on Brexit was not fixed for all time in June 2016.

THE GUARDIAN Jonathan Freedland Fri 25 Jan 2019


They have only one argument left. Back in the spring of 2016, the Brexiteers were promising sunshine and riches, untrammelled sovereignty and £350m a week: all the ice-cream of EU membership and none of the spinach. We would head out into the world and recover our destiny as a global trading nation, with more money in our pockets and independence in our hearts. You don’t hear much of that kind of talk these days, not when Airbus warns it could pull out of the UK – taking its 125,000 direct and indirect jobs with it – Sony relocates its European HQ from London to Amsterdam, and the carmaker Bentley says baldly: “It’s Brexit that’s the killer.”

Instead the pro-leave case now boils down to one argument: it may be rough – “We won’t be able to get certain foods like bananas or tomatoes,” in the words of one senior Brexiteer, confident our Blitz spirit will get us through the coming storm – but we have to do it. We have no choice. It is the will of the people, and that will must be done.

Theresa May is the most dogged exponent of this view. A remainer in 2016, she cannot bring herself to make a positive case for Brexit. Instead, she repeats over and over that we are compelled to leave because that is what the British people voted for. Any deviation would be a betrayal. We are a man taking off his socks, bracing himself to walk barefoot across hot coals – for no better reason than he promised he would.

Those whose ears are attuned to the echoes of the last century will recoil somewhat from this language of the “will of the people” and “betrayal”: such rhetoric has an unhappy history. But putting the language aside, is the logic of the argument sound? Are the leavers right that Brexit is compulsory because of the 2016 vote?

Some pro-Europeans like to escape the question by insisting that the referendum was only “advisory” and that the 52% figure is illusory, in that only 37% of the electorate actually voted to leave. I don’t have much patience for that reasoning. The referendum was not viewed at the time as a glorified consultation exercise, and the rules are the rules: 50% plus one of those who turned out was enough to win.
On its face, then, the popular will from 2016 is clear: we voted to leave. What’s standing in the way – threatening to betray the will of the people, as May would see it – is parliament. Note arch-Brexiteer Suella Braverman telling Question Time on Thursday that we are in this mess thanks to a bunch of “self-appointed MPs” bent on stopping our exit.

That phrase passed without a murmur of dissent, and yet it’s absurd. MPs are not self-appointed. They were elected in June 2017 in a general election that itself expressed the “will of the people”, producing a hung parliament deadlocked on the issue of Brexit. True, the two main party manifestos promised to honour the 2016 vote. But all the same, voters chose to return hundreds of pro-remain MPs, from Ken Clarke to David Lammy, who did not pretend their views had changed, regardless of their official party platforms. The result was enough pro-remain MPs to form a blocking majority against Brexit. Braverman would have been more honest had she said that we are in this mess because the people’s will has demanded two contradictory things on two separate occasions – and admitted that, of the two, it’s the MPs chosen in 2017 who have the fresher mandate.

But let’s say you decide that 2016 trumps 2017, that the referendum somehow represents the purer democratic choice. You still have a problem. Because it’s not obvious that either of the Brexits currently on offer – May’s deal or a no-deal crash-out – truly represents the will of the people, as expressed in the referendum. After all, neither of those Brexits were on the ballot paper. The question asked only if people wanted to leave the European Union. It made no mention of the single market or customs union. There might have been a different answer if it had.

That gap between actual Brexit and the Brexit voted on in 2016 becomes wider if you factor in not just the wording of the question, but the campaign. Leavers did not warn that their option would entail a £39bn divorce settlement or losing our say on EU rules that would still apply to us. Nor did they advise stockpiling essential food and medicine or gird us to take the “hit” of massive job losses, as they do now. Again, there might have been a different result if they had. Either way, the notion that a 52% vote for a hypothetical, pain-free Brexit translates into an unbreakable mandate for an actually existing Brexit is shaky at best.

May likes to speak of the inviolability of referendum verdicts as if it is a timeless, universal principle. Indeed, in a speech earlier this month she had planned to say that no referendum in UK history had ever been challenged, citing the 1997 decision to establish a Welsh assembly as an example where a narrow outcome was respected on all sides. The trouble is, it wasn’t. The Conservatives opposed the legislation that would have enacted the Welsh result. Among those “self-appointed MPs” all too willing to betray the will of the people on that occasion was May herself, along with Brexiteers John Redwood, Liam Fox, Bill Cash and the rest of the gang. It seems referendums are not so sacred after all.

Ah, but surely May, Redwood and friends are allowed to change their minds? In the words of that great sage David Davis: “If a democracy cannot change its mind, it ceases to be a democracy.” A democratic decision is not etched in stone, fixed for evermore. It is dynamic, with voters and indeed their elected representatives allowed to change their minds in the light of changed facts.

We know that May, for one, believes in that principle. If the will of the people were truly inviolable, she would have felt compelled to honour the people’s 2015 instruction to govern for five years with a Tory majority. Instead, she had no qualms about disobeying that instruction – betraying it, even – and calling a snap election just two years later, one that would see the people issue a new instruction, directing the Tories to rule with no majority.

Perhaps conscious of the weakness of their logic, the will-of-the-people crowd have one last, emotional card to play. Think of it as their very own Project Fear. Betraying the referendum, they say, will empower the far right. But, as the Labour MP Jess Phillips likes to put it, since when did we give the far right a “veto over British democracy”? If we had let them have the casting vote, homosexuality would still be illegal in this country, there would be no black people, and we’d never have gone to war in 1939.

What’s more, most of today’s Brexiteers would have shuddered if you’d have suggested a decade ago that Britain’s foreign policy should be determined on the basis of what might best prevent jihadism winning new, radicalised recruits. They’d have called it appeasement. So why do they think Britain’s European policy should now be determined on the basis of what might prevent “Tommy Robinson” winning recruits radicalised by a supposed Brexit betrayal?

The key point is that a sovereign nation, one truly in control of its destiny, is not bound by such restraints. Not by foreign powers, nor even by the decisions of its own recent past. To think again is not a betrayal of democracy. It is an assertion of it.

• Jonathan Freedland is a Guardian columnist
 
The ‘will of the people’ on Brexit was not fixed for all time in June 2016.

THE GUARDIAN Jonathan Freedland Fri 25 Jan 2019

They have only one argument left. Back in the spring of 2016, the Brexiteers were promising sunshine and riches, untrammelled sovereignty and £350m a week: all the ice-cream of EU membership and none of the spinach. We would head out into the world and recover our destiny as a global trading nation, with more money in our pockets and independence in our hearts...

Had to stifle a gag reflex reading that opener. Ewwww boy remainers really don't get it at all.

No Leaver ever held the delusional view Freedland describes. Period. A Leave view of coming out of the EU never came with a cheery picked outcome. What we fully expect and demand is mutual regard, fair trading, no more no less. But Gurnards and others of the left will continue to spew this tripe and similar ad nauseum.

And how is any reference to Tommy Robinson relevant to a discussion regarding national sovereignty haemmorage to the plutocrats of the EU? And why is a Leave position "far right" anyway. This is leftist drivel of the highest order.

This lame bid for another referendum ignores the clear language and simple basis on which the 2016 question was posed to the UK electorate. It was not ambiguous in its proposition. No one made a mistake when they placed their mark. "There can be no doubt about the decision that has been made"

If you want another referendum, then how about a best of three approach? Or maybe we just re-phrase the next referendum question with enough double negatives that folk do not know what they are choosing. Apparently Blair has mooted potential wording for that already. Ridiculous. Just ridiculous.
 
Just so we're clear: I'm not primarily scared of leaving the EU. I'm actively in favour of not only staying in, but being a far more active participant. Boom.
I wasn't referring to voters. I said it's the politicians who are afraid of taking responsibility for our governance. This is clearly evident in the dismal lack of vision, creative thinking, optimism and energy on display on all sides of the political establishment. And it isn't just Brexit. In almost every area of policy we see the defeatism and short-termism of virtue-signalling weather vane politicians who will twist whichever way the political wind is blowing if they think it will secure personal or partisan advantage regardless of mandate, conviction or principle. They are followers, not leaders. Career politicians who are only interested in the dull and easy option of managed decline.
As I say, there are honourable exceptions on all sides of the house but they are few in number and they rarely make it into the front benches; and those that do are quickly shunted off to the Lords or consigned to the back benches where they can't upset the plodding apple cart.

As for exerting a positive influence on the EU from within, we've had 40 years of trying with a conspicuous lack of success. There is not a single issue ever to have come under the Europeans Parliament's notice that has been altered, stopped or pushed over the line by the UK's 9% share of seats. Our failure rate in influencing the EU legislature is 100%. Just ask David Cameron how far our influence goes.
That is of course because the European project was never designed as a federation of nations acting in concert. It was expressly designed to be the exact opposite. It's credo, carved in letters of stone in the Treaty of Rome, is ever closer union. It is a construct whose only function and objective is the dissolution of the nation state and the subjugation of democracy. You cannot use your individual influence to change from within something whose entire reason for being is to bring about the abolition of individuality and the permanent replacement of influence with compliance.

The only possible way the UK can positively contribute to the political future of Europe is to lead by example from the outside and encourage others to follow.
 
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