South African Elephant

My view on all this cecil the lion etc business is this - If you're killing an animal for food, environmental conservation or for the animals welfare (IE its injured) then fine go ahead. I guess I'd also add on your own welfare as well, so if you're being chased by a wolf I think its probably fair game for it to end up in your crosshairs! Or in the case of lion hunting managing the population down so that local farmers arent getting attacked whilst working outdoors, I can see the need for that.

There is a little bit of me that is against killing something for the sole reason of hanging its head on your wall, not for any of the reasons mentioned above, and I get the impression a lot of big game hunting in Africa is permitted purely for financial reasons, not that I have an issue with that in particular either - If thats what brings the tourists and what kept a roof over my families head then I'd be doing the same.

The downside of that is that it is in the locals interest to ensure that any trophy hunters get to take a beast, any beast, and they therefore arent too fussed about what they kill. So therefore I wonder how effective the cull management is? We all know its not just a case of "kill x% of the estimated population" and factors such as the animals condition, the environment, age, sex etc all play a part.

I also wonder how much of the money these trophy hunters pay out actually makes it into the hands of conservationists?
 
I also recognise the PH as Nixon Dzingai one of the few black PHs in Africa which in itself is a success story.

In view of the inevitable witch hunt which has just started it might be a good idea not to post the PH's name on the forum? That said, cracking elephant, if it really was only $60,000 then it was a bargain.
 
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In view of the inevitable witch hunt which has just started it might be a good idea not to post the PH's name on the forum? That said, cracking elephant, if it really was only $60,000 then it was a bargain.

I wouldn't worry it's all over FB and there are numerous reports on other African hunting forums. I am sure Nixon isn't bothered after all Cecil the lion stirred zero interest in Zimbabwe. Interestingly the case against the Cecil the lion PH was dropped after the judge decided there was no case to answer, though the media have been slow to report this.
 
My view on all this cecil the lion etc business is this - If you're killing an animal for food, environmental conservation or for the animals welfare (IE its injured) then fine go ahead. I guess I'd also add on your own welfare as well, so if you're being chased by a wolf I think its probably fair game for it to end up in your crosshairs! Or in the case of lion hunting managing the population down so that local farmers arent getting attacked whilst working outdoors, I can see the need for that.

There is a little bit of me that is against killing something for the sole reason of hanging its head on your wall, not for any of the reasons mentioned above, and I get the impression a lot of big game hunting in Africa is permitted purely for financial reasons, not that I have an issue with that in particular either - If thats what brings the tourists and what kept a roof over my families head then I'd be doing the same.

The downside of that is that it is in the locals interest to ensure that any trophy hunters get to take a beast, any beast, and they therefore arent too fussed about what they kill. So therefore I wonder how effective the cull management is? We all know its not just a case of "kill x% of the estimated population" and factors such as the animals condition, the environment, age, sex etc all play a part.

I also wonder how much of the money these trophy hunters pay out actually makes it into the hands of conservationists?

How deluded, game populations require management in most southern African countries. Elephants for example have been limited to certain parks and areas within Zimbabwe, Hwange national park was meant to hold 4,000 elephants, it now holds nearly 50,000. In the late 80s they culled 15,000 elephants over two years in the park but lack of funds has meant that the cull was stopped and population soared resulting in severe deforestation and dust bowl conditions. Naturally elephants would wander freely changing forest to savannah in a great cycle over may hundreds of years.

The money raised from hunting goes back into either the parks or in the conservancies to pay for wardens and various conservation projects, Africa is a great example of how hunting and conservation goes hand in hand.


The good thing about trophy hunting is that you target old animals that are past their prime, have spread their genes and by removing them it doesn't upset the population dynamics. Yes hunting in Africa costs money but that in itself isn't a bad thing, if you give an animal a value it means something to the locals, take that value away and that animal is simply seen as a source of protein.
 
How deluded, game populations require management in most southern African countries. Elephants for example have been limited to certain parks and areas within Zimbabwe, Hwange national park was meant to hold 4,000 elephants, it now holds nearly 50,000. In the late 80s they culled 15,000 elephants over two years in the park but lack of funds has meant that the cull was stopped and population soared resulting in severe deforestation and dust bowl conditions. Naturally elephants would wander freely changing forest to savannah in a great cycle over may hundreds of years.

The money raised from hunting goes back into either the parks or in the conservancies to pay for wardens and various conservation projects, Africa is a great example of how hunting and conservation goes hand in hand.


The good thing about trophy hunting is that you target old animals that are past their prime, have spread their genes and by removing them it doesn't upset the population dynamics. Yes hunting in Africa costs money but that in itself isn't a bad thing, if you give an animal a value it means something to the locals, take that value away and that animal is simply seen as a source of protein.

Ok you may not agree with me, not sure I appreciate being called deluded for having an opinion which doesnt align with yours. But anyway, ignoring that...

I'm not aware of the stats on population numbers but surely you would agree that its in the locals interests to have a larger than ideal population of X animal (in this case elephants) to ensure that when a foreign hunter who has paid north of $30k for the privelege of hunting such an animal there be one present for them to shoot?

I read a BASC article a while back about red deer in scotland and they apparently have the same issue, where the woodland conservationists are pushing for a reduction in deer number to allow struggling trees to grow above 18" tall and the hunting lodges are pushing back because they want to ensure a high population of reds for people to shoot. After all, if you spent a couple of grand on a weeks hunting (and some do) and then didnt see a dicky-bird you probably would be less inclined to make a repeat trip.

In light of that line of thought I dont think its unreasonable to ask what basis the hunting lodge selects cull animals on? Are they just saying "Thank god, theres an elephant, quick shoot it" or are they pushing the hunters towards suitable cull beasts? From what you've said it sounds like they do and perhaps thats the really simple answer to the question in which case ok, cool, I'm fine with that. I dont know the answer, hence why I was asking.

I'm pro-hunting (hopefully obviously - otherwise this would be a pretty silly forum to join!), just my personal view on hunting is that you should do it for food, conservation or animal welfare reasons. Just my humble opinion, nothing more. I'm not saying trophy hunting should be outlawed or anything like that, and if the reason for the shoots is they have 10x the number of elephants they had 20 years ago and thats the issue they want to address (conservation) then thats also fine with me, no complaints here.
 
Ok you may not agree with me, not sure I appreciate being called deluded for having an opinion which doesnt align with yours. But anyway, ignoring that...

I'm not aware of the stats on population numbers but surely you would agree that its in the locals interests to have a larger than ideal population of X animal (in this case elephants) to ensure that when a foreign hunter who has paid north of $30k for the privelege of hunting such an animal there be one present for them to shoot?

I read a BASC article a while back about red deer in scotland and they apparently have the same issue, where the woodland conservationists are pushing for a reduction in deer number to allow struggling trees to grow above 18" tall and the hunting lodges are pushing back because they want to ensure a high population of reds for people to shoot. After all, if you spent a couple of grand on a weeks hunting (and some do) and then didnt see a dicky-bird you probably would be less inclined to make a repeat trip.

In light of that line of thought I dont think its unreasonable to ask what basis the hunting lodge selects cull animals on? Are they just saying "Thank god, theres an elephant, quick shoot it" or are they pushing the hunters towards suitable cull beasts? From what you've said it sounds like they do and perhaps thats the really simple answer to the question in which case ok, cool, I'm fine with that. I dont know the answer, hence why I was asking.

I'm pro-hunting (hopefully obviously - otherwise this would be a pretty silly forum to join!), just my personal view on hunting is that you should do it for food, conservation or animal welfare reasons. Just my humble opinion, nothing more. I'm not saying trophy hunting should be outlawed or anything like that, and if the reason for the shoots is they have 10x the number of elephants they had 20 years ago and thats the issue they want to address (conservation) then thats also fine with me, no complaints here.

Part of the problem is that the media, true to form, would have most of the 'western world' (I use this as a turn of phrase, not geographically speaking) believing that most species in Africa are endangered or close to extinction, and that's simply not the case. They may be locally, and in certain countries, but that continent often gets referenced as a whole, and therefore things like elephants get perceived as being rare...... they aren't!! neither are lions, speak to locals and they'll say the same about leopards, most of them hate them as there are too many and they are really killers..... yet perception over here is that they are rare/close to extinction.... game, certainly in south Africa is owned, no different than a farmer over here owning cattle, whether it be antelope species, elephants, giraffes etc or lions and leopards.... they all belong to the land owners who have a vested interest in their good management as selling them and breeding from them is their income....
 
Ok you may not agree with me, not sure I appreciate being called deluded for having an opinion which doesnt align with yours. But anyway, ignoring that...

I'm not aware of the stats on population numbers but surely you would agree that its in the locals interests to have a larger than ideal population of X animal (in this case elephants) to ensure that when a foreign hunter who has paid north of $30k for the privelege of hunting such an animal there be one present for them to shoot?
- Have you ever been elephant hunting? The odds are greatly stacked against the hunter, the idea of guaranteeing an elephant of the size of the one shot is nigh on impossible hence the media frenzy. The only local interest is getting enough food in order to live, they have no interest in seeing a wealthy foreign hunter get his trophy. The benefit of trophy hunting is the fact that the hunting companies have to employ game wardens to police the area, the PHs are on hand when crop raiding occurs and can easily arrange permits at short notice, some of the locals are directly employed, part of the money raised goes back into the local community for schools, food etc, therefore the locals are less inclined to annihilate every animal for food.

I read a BASC article a while back about red deer in scotland and they apparently have the same issue, where the woodland conservationists are pushing for a reduction in deer number to allow struggling trees to grow above 18" tall and the hunting lodges are pushing back because they want to ensure a high population of reds for people to shoot. After all, if you spent a couple of grand on a weeks hunting (and some do) and then didnt see a dicky-bird you probably would be less inclined to make a repeat trip. - ? Have you ever been to Scotland, many rural areas rely on hunting for the income it brings, if you want to grow trees then many businesses will close. I believe that there is a balance and most estates do have management plans in place, the landscape of Scotland which we all love is a product of mans influence over many centuries. You can try to turn back that influence back but where do you draw the line?

In light of that line of thought I dont think its unreasonable to ask what basis the hunting lodge selects cull animals on? Are they just saying "Thank god, theres an elephant, quick shoot it" or are they pushing the hunters towards suitable cull beasts? From what you've said it sounds like they do and perhaps thats the really simple answer to the question in which case ok, cool, I'm fine with that. I dont know the answer, hence why I was asking. - Most stag stalking is based upon taking old beasts past their prime or stags with unwanted characteristics, or injury/sickness. In elephants it is highly regulated and permits fo females/males are released annually based on game counts.

I'm pro-hunting (hopefully obviously - otherwise this would be a pretty silly forum to join!), just my personal view on hunting is that you should do it for food, conservation or animal welfare reasons. Just my humble opinion, nothing more. I'm not saying trophy hunting should be outlawed or anything like that, and if the reason for the shoots is they have 10x the number of elephants they had 20 years ago and thats the issue they want to address (conservation) then thats also fine with me, no complaints here.

I think you are confused with why we hunt which first and foremost should be because we really enjoy it not food, conservation, etc these are just secondary benefits, also trophy and cull hunting are one and the same, i.e. by selecting a deer with good antlers which has past his prime is selective culling. Ironically most culling i.e. the Forestry Commission, woodland trust, FC contactors etc is non selective and simply based upon the shooting the first animal seen (providing it is in season).
 
I think you are confused with why we hunt which first and foremost should be because we really enjoy it not food, conservation, etc these are just secondary benefits, also trophy and cull hunting are one and the same, i.e. by selecting a deer with good antlers which has past his prime is selective culling. Ironically most culling i.e. the Forestry Commission, woodland trust, FC contactors etc is non selective and simply based upon the shooting the first animal seen (providing it is in season).

True you're right there! And I guess I hadnt considered that trophy hunting and culling can be one and the same, a fair point well made.

I havent been big game hunting though I have been up to Scotland and agree a lot of rural areas rely on shooting income. I'm not saying they should change it, just highlighting the conflicting views of the woodland conservationists vs the hunting lodges. Both have their valid points and I do also agree that a good balance between the two is struck.
 
Maybe deluded was a bit strong/rude and I apologise. There will always be conflict over land use especially in a crowded island like Britain but I think we need to find a balance, if people want to restore ancient woods in Scotland then fencing initially is a better option, I also think the SNPs attitude towards deer is class based and ultimately they want to hit large landowners financially.

In the UK unlike the large parks in Zimbabwe, Moz, Tanzania etc there are no natural predators of adult deer other than man and if a dramatic reduction is required say in a restock then deer of all ages would have to be culled like many SA ranches.
 
True you're right there! And I guess I hadnt considered that trophy hunting and culling can be one and the same, a fair point well made.

I havent been big game hunting though I have been up to Scotland and agree a lot of rural areas rely on shooting income. I'm not saying they should change it, just highlighting the conflicting views of the woodland conservationists vs the hunting lodges. Both have their valid points and I do also agree that a good balance between the two is struck.

Which is more natural though, plantation forestry covering huge expanses with large areas clear felled and restocked with young trees, or a native species living wild in the landscape? Are you talking about woodland conservationists or foresters? Massive difference!
 
I would love the chance of an elephant like that seems a far better way to spend forty grand than on a sports car. Any one know what elephant tastes like I was told hippo was amazing
 
Well, in addition to all the above, one of the guys in Zim I keep in touch, with was telling me only yesterday morning that the poachers are really hammering the elephant population this year. Not much (any) mention of that so presumably its ok. Very sad.
Just in case anybody thinks that the poachers are helping the local population by earning big money which circulates in the local economy, of course this is not the case as they may not even be from the same country but they earn pennies, live in fear and squalor and, of course, the foreign nationals who control the trade make the big bucks.
So, if you are incensed, please google any of the anti poaching projects and make a donation. That may help save these animals.
 
My view on all this cecil the lion etc business is this - If you're killing an animal for food, environmental conservation or for the animals welfare (IE its injured) then fine go ahead. I guess I'd also add on your own welfare as well, so if you're being chased by a wolf I think its probably fair game for it to end up in your crosshairs! Or in the case of lion hunting managing the population down so that local farmers arent getting attacked whilst working outdoors, I can see the need for that.

There is a little bit of me that is against killing something for the sole reason of hanging its head on your wall, not for any of the reasons mentioned above, and I get the impression a lot of big game hunting in Africa is permitted purely for financial reasons, not that I have an issue with that in particular either - If thats what brings the tourists and what kept a roof over my families head then I'd be doing the same.

The downside of that is that it is in the locals interest to ensure that any trophy hunters get to take a beast, any beast, and they therefore arent too fussed about what they kill. So therefore I wonder how effective the cull management is? We all know its not just a case of "kill x% of the estimated population" and factors such as the animals condition, the environment, age, sex etc all play a part.

I also wonder how much of the money these trophy hunters pay out actually makes it into the hands of conservationists?

If it was not for trophy hunting the majority of areas would have no animals at all as there would be no incentive for the owner to have the animals on his ground. Trophy hunting has increased the number and quality of wildlife in several countries. The management on all the areas i have hunted on in Africa has been excellent and without proper management they would soon go out of business as people would not hunt with companies that just shoot any animal and call it a trophy. If you want to learn about the benefits to wildlife of sport hunting and trophy hunting i suggest you read Raymond Bonners book At The Hand Of Man. A very interesting book.
 
I would love the chance of an elephant like that seems a far better way to spend forty grand than on a sports car. Any one know what elephant tastes like I was told hippo was amazing

My lad and I would love the chance of going out with the Rangers hunting poachers! Much more sporting.
 
If it was not for trophy hunting the majority of areas would have no animals at all as there would be no incentive for the owner to have the animals on his ground. Trophy hunting has increased the number and quality of wildlife in several countries. The management on all the areas i have hunted on in Africa has been excellent and without proper management they would soon go out of business as people would not hunt with companies that just shoot any animal and call it a trophy. If you want to learn about the benefits to wildlife of sport hunting and trophy hunting i suggest you read Raymond Bonners book At The Hand Of Man. A very interesting book.

Good to know it's all well managed! Thanks for the heads up on the book, I'll give that a read!
 
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