Strange Request For RFD Transfer

[scubadog]

I don't see how it can be right to send your licence to someone who has never met you.
Surley the whole point of having a photo id is that anyone selling a gun can look at you and check you are the right person on the certificate.
This doesn't happen if you have to send your cert to someone else....
My understanding and the way it is usually done is the first RFD transfer the gun t the second. At that point the second RFD "owns the gun", its on his books as such. The second RFD then enters it on the buyers cert and removes it from his books!
That's no different from RFDs trading guns as they do and selling them to the final user.
That's the more usual/ normal way of doing things.....Safer and less faff....job done in my book.

 

[geordieh]

That's an easy one to answer- the same as always your firearms department. They are the only ones that can remove or delete a firearm from a certificate.

As regards RFD to RFD transfers, I think the crux of the matter is that this was never really envisaged when the firearms acts were originally drafted and that subsequent amendments to the acts have only confused the issue.

So when does it stop being my responsibility? when I hand it wrapped up to the courier, when the RFD at the other end receives it or when firearms dept take it off my ticket
Geordie

 

[8x57]

Responsability now that's a different matter - you mentioned deleting firearms from a certificate and I just pointed out that the only ones that can actually delete from a certificate are your firearms department. If you are talking about responsability you must be able to demonstrate due dilligence in that you handed over the firearm to someone who you had established had lawful authority or exscuse to possess it. Which brings up the point how many of us actually ask to see the dealers ticket of a RFD before we hand over a gun? Yet before a RFD transfers a firearm to another RFD unless it is someone that they deal with regularly and have a facimile of their ticket on file they will request one and even make a few enquiries with the local force if they have any doubts.

Deviating slightly but in a similar vein I handed over a rifle to a local auction house some years ago. The company had been operating regular gun auctions for years and the guy who dealt with the legal side of it for the firm was a retired police inspector and of good repute. Some weeks later I had an urgent phone call from the auctioneers to say that the next sale had been cancelled and that we had a problem because they had neglected to apply for the necessary auctioneers permit. It was panic stations all around I can tell you because potentially we had both committed a crime and I certainly wouldn’t have been able to demonstrate due diligence in this case. Lets just say that before I had any other dealings with them at a later date that I asked to see their permit.

 

[Frank Homes]

8x57, auctioneers have an exemption to possess firearms but must apply for a permit to sell them. So there was really no need to panic. And only they would have committed an offence if they had proceeded with the sale without one.

F

 

[8x57]

Frank the thing is that they hadn't applied for the permit and I had handed over the rifle in good faith but without checking. It was twenty something years ago now so I don't think that I will worry too much about it.

 

[billh]

Here is the BASC guidance on the guidance to police. Names have been removed.

Dear billh,

The latest guidance dated November 2013 is here - https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/firearms-law-guidance-to-the-police-2012.

5.17 in the latest version simply deals with the notification procedure where a gun is held for sale or return. A sale is only complete once the shop has transferred it onto a buyer in exchange for the full payment. The guidance merely states that the shop should inform the original owner and then the police be notified by the previous owner and not the shop.

Section 57(4) of the 1968 Act defines transfer as follows. You will see that money or reward has no specific bearing on transfers but transfers include transfers in exchange of money (selling) as well as any form of “parting with possession”.

““transfer” includes let on hire, give, lend and part with possession, and “transferee” and “transferor” shall be construed accordingly.”

That definition is the basis for the Home Office guidance.

Dealer to dealer transfers via registered courier do not have to be ‘face to face’

In terms of remote sales with customers; the certificate instructions requires the seller (whether RFD or not) to endorse the buyers certificate first then send it back to them. Then the gun is shipped via the sellers local RFD (or RFD who is the seller) to a second RFD who will check the certificate details for that gun and hand over the gun face to face to the purchaser.

We have asked the Home office to change this but they wish to maintain links between the buyer and seller without intermediaries being caught up in the middle. In short it keeps investigations short and to the point without having to trace via dealers registers.

I hope this helps?

Best wishes

BASC Firearms Dept.

The penultimate paragraph says it all and that is if you buy a gun from somebody whom you cannot do a face to face transfer with you must send your SGC/FAC to the seller for them to complete the relevant details.

This to me seems to be a an error in the system to make life easy for the Home Office and Police, what if your SGC/FAC goes missing in the post or the seller/dealer is less than respectable?

 

[243ack]

As an RFD; I think I'll continue to do it 'the wrong way' until asked to change procedure by my FLD.

 

[Tackleberry270]

As an RFD; I think I'll continue to do it 'the wrong way' until asked to change procedure by my FLD.

Interesting and informative thread. I have made transfers 'the wrong way' with my local Firearms department in full knowledge of it. I think on this subject it is worth picking battles carefully as it currently seems to be an accepted method of transfer.

As for the Home Office wanting to encourage face to face transfers. Someone ought to point out that with the cost of RFDs fees sending and receiving many will prefer to spend the money on fuel and see before they buy anyway so that argument doesn't wash.

 

[CharlieT]

This to me seems to be a an error in the system to make life easy for the Home Office and Police, what if your SGC/FAC goes missing in the post or the seller/dealer is less than respectable?

What's the problem.
If your fac goes missing you just ask for a replacement and if the seller was less than respectable, then you wouldn't have sent him a bundle of cash, up front, in the hope he would send you a firearm..

 

[49ERIC]

Some RFDs do it this way. Stop lynching the poor chap. I know the Northallerton gunshop does this. From their website:

Wow, talk about short and sharp.
Now we not only know the names we now know the shop !
At no time should your FC be out of your control/sight so I am not sure whether the way that transaction takes place is even legal.

good Point made Here , Only my Opion , But would not be , Going down this root Thats for Sure,

 

[billh]

Charlie T. This seems to be a 'Marmite' issue. Have you tried to get a replacement FAC after putting yours in the post and losing it?

I am certainly not going to send my SGC/FAC to anybody. I don't even send it to the the Police for renewal etc, I deliver it.

If I purchase a new rifle it will be face-to-face or not at all.

 

[CharlieT]

Charlie T. This seems to be a 'Marmite' issue. Have you tried to get a replacement FAC after putting yours in the post and losing it?

I am certainly not going to send my SGC/FAC to anybody. I don't even send it to the the Police for renewal etc, I deliver it.

If I purchase a new rifle it will be face-to-face or not at all.

Not in the post but have lost mine a couple of times. Just send a cheque for £9 and they send you a replacement, no big deal.

 

[Tackleberry270]

Not in the post but have lost mine a couple of times. Just send a cheque for £9 and they send you a replacement, no big deal.

I've also lost mine before and had it replaced. Its not the kind of document I want somewhere out there in the unknown especially if its still in date. Hopefully this process will stay as 'an unusual request' as put by the OP.

 

[Brithunter]

Charlie T. This seems to be a 'Marmite' issue. Have you tried to get a replacement FAC after putting yours in the post and losing it?

I am certainly not going to send my SGC/FAC to anybody. I don't even send it to the the Police for renewal etc, I deliver it.

If I purchase a new rifle it will be face-to-face or not at all.

Yet the Police send out your new unsigned certificate by ordinary post .................................... just how secure is that?

 

[eldon]

Resurrecting an old thread I know but.....

Brithunter not only that, but post it back to your previous address when notifying them of a change of address (which they had done)???

 

[matt_hooks]

So, out of interest, sort of a "what if".

Person A agrees to sell their rifle to person B.

Person B does not have a slot for the rifle, but has applied for a variation.

Person A requires the slot to transfer another rifle on to their certificate.

Is it permissible for person A to transfer the rifle to their local RFD, and off their ticket, to be sent on to the buyers local RFD to hold until the variation on their certificate comes back?

 

[I. Farticus]

So, out of interest, sort of a "what if".

Person A agrees to sell their rifle to person B.

Person B does not have a slot for the rifle, but has applied for a variation.

Person A requires the slot to transfer another rifle on to their certificate.

Is it permissible for person A to transfer the rifle to their local RFD, and off their ticket, to be sent on to the buyers local RFD to hold until the variation on their certificate comes back?

Yes, spot on

 

[timbrayford]

When selling a rifle or shotgun I just leave it with my local RFD to sell on commission and transfer it to him, that takes it off my certificate and onto his. He then deducts around 15 -20% for his fees, which is usually covered by him getting a better price than I might in a private sale and it saves me from all the hassle of convoluted paperwork, dealing with potential timewasters/crooks etc.

atb Tim