Surprise Visit

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I am not saying anything about what our representatives should be saying. Some are on FELWG and accept this each meeting?

Kes

I not too sure what your sources are but there are no shooting organisations that have a seat on, or have ever been invited to attend FELWG meetings.

If the CA, SACS, BASC, NRA or any other shooting organisations did, then it would follow that all other interested stakeholders, which would include the Gun Control Network, Snowdrop and all other opposed to the private ownership of firearms would also be invited - it is a closed shop
 
Kes

I not too sure what your sources are but there are no shooting organisations that have a seat on, or have ever been invited to attend FELWG meetings.

If the CA, SACS, BASC, NRA or any other shooting organisations did, then it would follow that all other interested stakeholders, which would include the Gun Control Network, Snowdrop and all other opposed to the private ownership of firearms would also be invited - it is a closed shop

Thanks for the correction. I think I got the belief from BASC but I must have misinterpreted it and therefore been mistaken, so my apologies. If its a closed shop then no shooting organisation takes part in the decisions. It does however make me wonder why the 'shop a shooter' initiative was initially supported.
 
It does however make me wonder why the 'shop a shooter' initiative was initially supported.

Simples?
Like a rat and a lump of cheese, sadly one day all gone?

I thought it reported somewhere that CC Marsh, hailed it as a success, quoted various statistics and hoped it would be expanded further?
Can someone please confirm?
 
Simples?
Like a rat and a lump of cheese, sadly one day all gone?

I thought it reported somewhere that CC Marsh, hailed it as a success, quoted various statistics and hoped it would be expanded further?
Can someone please confirm?

You are correct. There was a post (I think on here) which linked to or copied the FELWG minutes where the stats were given and Mr Marsh suggested that the initiative was obviously therefore valuable and should be continued. I'll try and find it.
Its quoted at post no.20 but the copy of the minutes is elsewhere.
 
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I have no problem with police visits (if ever they can find either of us in) but it would be far better for them to make an appointment. In fact I would prefer to go back to where the local Bobby did it all eg paid me a visit to inform me my gun licence was due for renewal ( he had checked at the post office).
However times have moved on and although our local police service is good on both renewals and variations I would much prefer a policeman to visit rather than an employee of G4S or some other private company. I do not like the thought of all FAC holders being on a data base with a security firm.
When keepering on the Cotswolds we had terrific service from our local station even to a situation where an officer went to county HQ to get my wife's certificate renewal as she was going to Scotland stalking and it hadn't come back.
We can all get a little paranoid at times about these sort of things but I do feel that any unannounced visit would be a waste of police resources for reasons already stated, and as they are so short staffed an impractical solution for them.
 
I have been reminded of the time over 30 years ago when a Strathclyde officer turned up (by appointment) to inspect security.
He was in uniform,in a marked car and he was accompanied by another man, not in uniform.
When I asked who he was I was told that he was "just along for a look".
I refused him entry.
The inspecting officer was very officious. Wanted lots of extra security.
The final straw came when he told me that the Safe I kept my ammo in had to be bolted to the wall!
That was when I told him that if someone new I had pistols in the house and wanted them, I would open the door one night and find I was looking down the barrel of a loaded Shotgun.

My renewal took nearly 6 months that time!
 
Just had a visit from a PC in a marked car to check my firearms security? He arrived at 9.30pm! found it to be strange? the chap was very polite, just mentioned he was under pressure from above to check security arrangements? He had a quick look, ticked a few boxes and left? Has this happened to anyone else?

I would have no problems with such an unannounced visit if it was a convenient moment. However after the checkup I would politely
express my reservations and inform the Officer that I would write to my PCC asking for an explanation why the Force acted against HO guidance , AND inform BASC.
 
Not really have a problem with unannounced visit,
Much more interested in where our money is going, Years ago our little community had a police house and resident constable.
he was always to be seen about the area, Now our community has expanded considerably and no local police.
There is a set system for funding per household, more people paying towards policing but many less visible policing!
Where are the funds going?
 
Kes

I not too sure what your sources are but there are no shooting organisations that have a seat on, or have ever been invited to attend FELWG meetings.

If the CA, SACS, BASC, NRA or any other shooting organisations did, then it would follow that all other interested stakeholders, which would include the Gun Control Network, Snowdrop and all other opposed to the private ownership of firearms would also be invited - it is a closed shop

Not to worry, BASC are "fully engaged".
 
That's very clear and helpful.
Maybe also contact your Police and Crime Commissioner?
A lot of them were elected on a low turn-out with small majorities.
 
To quote CC Andy Marsh (chair of FELWG) from the NPPC FELWG minutes of February 5th 2015 on the subject or unannounced visits

"To date there have been 1245 unannounced visits, 107 found security issues, 63 other issues, 83 certificate holders received advice, 25 a written warning, 62 are currently under review and 28 had been revoked.

This is a valuable initiative and thanked everyone for their help and urged unannounced visits to continue as good practice"

These figures don't tell us enough.
We'd need them broken down into visits which followed HO guidelines - i.e., were "based on specific intelligence in light of a threat", and those which were simply random visits based on nothing.
It's the latter practice that is the issue. No-one objects to police action to investigate a suspected threat.
 
I would have no problems with such an unannounced visit if it was a convenient moment. However after the checkup I would politely
express my reservations and inform the Officer that I would write to my PCC asking for an explanation why the Force acted against HO guidance , AND inform BASC.

No disrespect to you, but do you really think that upon receiving your communications the police would give a toss? They surely would not, no matter who you wrote to and who wrote to them.
 
I wonder how many armed response have unannounced visits in their houses? Does anyone know a statistic for this, surely it must be the same for police. I mean wouldn't it for part of a basic risk assessment to carry out such visits in case a live or spent case was to drop into you bag or pocket as you leave the range . I know guys in the forces who were lucky to realise that a spent case from the guy next to them had gone into there open pocket before leaving the range. But I would think some would have not realised and got there arses kicked... .....Just wondering what the police would do if they had an unannounced visit....
 
....I know guys in the forces who were lucky to realise that a spent case from the guy next to them had gone into there open pocket before leaving the range. But I would think some would have not realised and got there arses kicked.....

I don't why they would be lucky, or get into trouble. Even if the police, like the military, are required to make a verbal deceleration to not have any empty cases in there possession it is not an offence to have have one in your possession and if you find one, you just hand it in.
 
These figures don't tell us enough.
We'd need them broken down into visits which followed HO guidelines - i.e., were "based on specific intelligence in light of a threat", and those which were simply random visits based on nothing.
It's the latter practice that is the issue. No-one objects to police action to investigate a suspected threat.

I see no reason to assume they were nothing other than simply random unannounced visits. I base this on the fact that context of the minute I quoted was a report on the unannounced visits initiative. This minuted subject had previously been discussed by FELWG several times and at all times was solely to do with unannounced random visits and the crimestoppers hotline, which was soon renamed the gun safety secure line.
 
Whilst it is eminently sensible to get on with and act in a spirit of mutual co-operation with FEO teams for the benefit of both sides, all such issues ought to be undertaken not in the spirit of, but to the letter of the law.

If a uniformed officer tuned up unannounced in the evening, and asked to check my firearms security, I would first ask on what grounds were the police attending. If the response was unsatisfactory (and a random visit is an unsatisfactory reason) then I would politely refuse to allow entry as there are no legal grounds for doing so. I would though offer to allow a security check by mutually acceptable arrangement with a member of the FEOs team. I would certainly NOT open the gunsafe for a uniformed officer arriving out of the blue in the unlikely event they had "good reason" by way of a report which might suggest lack security or whatever. That would most definitely have to be by prior arrangement unless they had grounds to suspect a crime had been committed or that the person being visited was in contravention of the Firearms Act.

Whilst I'm all for co-operation with the police and have actively supported them in the past, the line should never be crossed which intrudes on civil liberties and legal rights.
 
'freedoms', 'intrusions', 'police criminality' - what a load of auld wifies.

If the police arrive at my door with a warrant to gain access, they are coming in with or without my say so - though I'd prefer to open the door to save any mess.

If the police arrive at my door requesting to check my firearms I am under no illusion that it is my right to say yes or no, much of that will depend on whether the request is civil, at a reasonable hour etc. There are fewer situations where I can imagine I would refuse access than where I would grant access.

I live in a place where the local force are doing a good job and are under increased pressure. Like every walk in life, SD included, they have their share of eejits. But if they make a polite request I will accommodate if I can.

Yup my thoughts exactly
 
If the request is at a reasonable hour, convenient and polite, then why refuse?
By permitting the visit, you are showing that you have nothing to hide, happy to comply with a reasonable request, and it will certainly not harm any future renewals/variations.
Remember, just a few short weeks ago, an "established" contributor to this very forum had a surprise visit after his child was spotted poking a rifle through the window. On arrival, the police found firearms left out and unattended. Bye bye FAC (quite correctly IMHO) and hello to the tar brush for the rest of us.
While I am a great fan of everyone having, and enforcing, their rights, we must also be careful to make sure the glasshouse is spotless before we start throwing stones?
 
If the request is at a reasonable hour, convenient and polite, then why refuse?
By permitting the visit, you are showing that you have nothing to hide, happy to comply with a reasonable request, and it will certainly not harm any future renewals/variations.
Remember, just a few short weeks ago, an "established" contributor to this very forum had a surprise visit after his child was spotted poking a rifle through the window. On arrival, the police found firearms left out and unattended. Bye bye FAC (quite correctly IMHO) and hello to the tar brush for the rest of us.
While I am a great fan of everyone having, and enforcing, their rights, we must also be careful to make sure the glasshouse is spotless before we start throwing stones?

That visit was obviously prompted by the report of the rifle out the window. Fair enough, intelligence led, as these visits are supposed to be. My objection is fishing visits, based on nothing.

Let's look at the premise for this scheme. It's supposed to be to prevent legally owned firearms falling into the hands of terrorists in these times of unprecedented terrorist threat. Correct?

The terrorist threat in the UK and Europe is actually less than it was in the 70's and 80's, so there goes the 'unprecedented'. And, if terrorists were to target legal gun owners your gunsafe isn't going to stop them. In fact they would likely just wait till you were home and get your keys from you through violence. Remember poor old George Digweed, and the gent I mentioned in the other thread murdered for his cabinet keys?

The measure most likely to prevent terrorists from acquiring legal firearms are for FAC/SC holders to keep a low profile and for the authorities to protect their identities. Well, done govt. for now identifying all FAC/SC holders on medical records.

If the worst came to worst and a licence holder was raided by terrorists the most effective method to prevent their firearms falling into the hands of violent criminals are the firearms themselves, but guess what, can't use them for home/self-defence.

So I question how serious this initiative is at trying to keep terrorists from our guns.

Maybe it's to prevent firearms falling into the hands of opportunistic thieves? But if someone were in the habit of leaving their firearms out when they weren't at home (the most serious situation), well the police aren't going to find out with unannounced visits are they, because no one will be home to let them in.

So what is it achieving? It may well catch out a few people, and even then that could be open to interpretation. What if you let them in and your rifle is out being cleaned? Is that a breach of your conditions? What if you were practicing your positions, dry firing? Are firearms 'unsecured' if you are present? What if you just returned from, or were about to go shooting, and your guns were out? That may depend on the police officer/FLO and their knowledge, experience, or even prejudice, like the story I heard of an FLO who wanted to revoke an FAC because they saw ammunition unsecured during a visit, when in fact it was empty cases.

At best this scheme is another case of 'being seen to be doing something', at worst it's yet another attempt at trimming down the number of licence holders. And it's being carried out contrary to guidance; the same guidance we are all supposed to be following, and God help us if we don't!

Those who think it's all BS conspiracy theories obviously have no knowledge or understanding of the history of firearms legislation in this country.

Wolfie
 
Unannounced home visits
It is essential that the police undertake unannounced visits when they have thenecessary intelligence to do so. We were pleased to find that all forces stated thatthey would undertake visits when intelligence was received.
It would appear that the police require the consent of the householder to enter thepremises, even where they have intelligence that there may be a concern about thesecurity of a firearm. The absence of a specific legal right of entry means that thepolice may not be able to carry out their responsibilities when they attempt anunannounced visit, if the householder refuses entry.
This potential impasse is not in the best interests of the public. The Home Officeshould ensure that, in such cases, the law enables the police to fulfil their duty byinspecting the firearm, ammunition and the site where they are stored.




Got that from the
Targeting the risk An inspection of the efficiency and effectiveness offirearms licensing in police forces in England and Wales
September 2015
© HMIC 2015
ISBN: 978-1-78246-851-6





Sorry i couldn't include a link until I've completed 5 posts
 
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