Sussex and the .243

[ads03]

Hi all, I was wondering if I could pick your brains?
I have currently got a variation in progress with sussex police to swap my.223 for a .243 and you've guessed it there towing the party-line and asking for a mentor or DSC 1. They have said I can have the .243 for fox with no problems or conditions but if I want to point it at deer I need to have someone show me how to do it!?!
Now that my sound crazy enough but the really STUPID thing with this is at the moment I currently have muntjac and chinese water deer cleared with the .223 with no conditions at all?????
I have spoken to the BASC and they have been extremely helpfull and told me who I need to speak to and what I should say, but my question to you guys is this, how much should I argue this? Obviously I would like my .243 and be able to stalk with it but if I throw my toys out of the pram too much am I going to make life difficult for myself in the future, sort of a bitting the hand that feeds type of situation?
I have no problem with the DSC 1 and I intend on taking it in the future, but I do object to being told I have to do it to shoot roe and bigger when they are more than happy to let me shoot the two smaller spieces of deer unacommpanied with no magic bit of paper saying I know what they look like!
Anyway rant over and I'll turn this over to you guys, what do you think?
Cheers in advance
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[Si]

That's a bit weird.... I was staying with some friends down in Horsham in June and I phoned west Sussex to check land clearance as I still have closed ticket. I was told the land was cleared previously only for .17hmr and .22lr and he asked me what I would be shooting. I said I'll be stalking roe during the day and lamping foxes at night. He said "ok no problem I'll drive over there this afternoon and take a look" he phoned back later that day to say he'd cleared it for .243, didn't ask for previous experience or whether I'd be shooting with a mentor or anything...

 

[JAYB]

The thing is that the ill informed FLO's that exist and their senior officers need to be taken to task over the stupidity of some of their decisions. Yours is a good example you can stalk CWD and Muntjac unaccompanied but not Roe. You have quite rightly contacted BASC and they have supplied you with the relevant information, now you do not want to jeopardise your future shooting by making too much of a fuss. You cannot expect other people to fight your battles for you, if you want it sorted then make a fuss force your FLO and his department to come to the right decision. If you feel that you have a case go for it.

This is how the rights of stalkers nationwide are eroded, people have a grievance but don't want to make too much of a fuss in case they come to notice, but it will be fine for someone else to do it? If we don't make a stand at every opportunity where we are wronged it can only get worse. There are mechanisms in place for airing your grievances via BASC etc, but you do have to get involved. To my way of thinking you should argue your case in the strongest manner open to you.

John

 

[finnbear270]

Applause!

 

[6pointer]

Ads why not do the DSC 1 it will give you a lot of info and will get you your .243 but make sure its an open certificate if you do the DCS.

 

[JC275]

I take it that you have got this in writing (or at least email) from Sussex Police? If not then that is the first thing to do. JC

 

[Gingwa]

Hi Ads,

I have recently had a similar issue with Cheshire.
I was able to go out with a .223 unaccompanied, but had to be accompanied by an accomplished stalker to go out with the.243.

I tried to discuss the matter with the firearms manager and just went around in circles. I then sent a letter of complaint in.
Amazingly they changed the conditions for me.
I also wrote to the Superintendent in charge of the firearms dept with regards to the whole issue, as a result I had a meeting with him.
You definately need to take it up with them.
If you need copies of my letters for guidance just PM me and I will email them over to you.

Cheers,
Sion

 

[ads03]

Hi JAYB, I have not got a problem causing a fuss, I completely agree with you that it doesn't only effect me but anyone else who may be applying for a deer legal calibre. What I was really asking was weather anybody had had any similar experiences and weather jumping up and down would do any good or just leave me high and dry?
I will be calling Sussex Headquarters today to speak to the relevent officers in charge and see where it gets me. I will let you all know how I get on, wish me luck.
Cheers Ads

P.S Sion you have a PM.

 

[JAYB]

You do that and whatever decision they come to get it in writing, get names and telephone ext numbers and keep asking if they are in charge, you will be surprised how many Indians are just self appointed chiefs and need "to speak to their boss" when pushed. Just put on a determined front and keep mentioning BASC or whichever organisation represents you, it can be done Sion has done it.

Good luck

John

 

[Orion]

Ditto what the other respondents have said. After you've got the telephone calls out of the way my advice would be to put your request in writing in as concise a manner as possible covering all the points you raised in your original posting, and ask for a written response. If they try to then give you the brush off by telephone or personal visit, again insist that they respond in writing as you will be taking it further up the chain of command. It can have a wonderful effect as Sion has noted.

Anyhow, do these people think they are now adminstering the Deer acts as well as the Firearms Act?

Best of luck in your application - give us an update as and when.

 

[Tamus]

Hi ads303. I can't tell you what you should do but I can say this. The Police have a duty to process your application. You have the right to ask for whatever you want. If you've given good reason in your application that gives them a problem. They'd rather talk you into whatever they can before you submit. If you submit and their not happy they can refuse, but they have to justify it and be able to deal with your appeal if their refusal is on invalid grounds. From what you've said, a refusal to leave you able to use a .243 the same way you use a .223 wouldn't make much sense. I've been through this scenario myself, my FLO tried to convince me I did not need what I said I wanted. (Need is irrelevant) The advice I got was; you have good reason, you have shown good reason, so just submit. I got what I was asking for, with no more fuss.

 

[Hodadr]

Hi Ads,

Same old story, some pen push interpreting the law as they see it, find an agreeable lawyer, if your discussions go nowhere a sutiably worded letter might just do the trick. But unfortunately they have to refuse your request, especially as you already have an FAC they really can only refuse if you haven't got a resonable reason or are unsafe.

Take it all the way!

 

[geoffrey]

hi ads303 i recently had dealings with sussex police,and even with dsc1 they wanted to impose high seat conditions, all i can say is write direct to carol popple explaining that you already have permission to shoot deer on your ticket and ask her to review your application, it worked for me
regards Geoff

 

[ads03]

Right then an update.
I spoke to Paul Francis who is No.2 in-charge under Carol Popple. I have to say he was actually fairly helpfull. Basically he has said to continue with the application and to provide some evidence of prievous stalks and safe rifle handling, eg, a letter from a qualified or time-served stalker, receipts, etc.
He said the reason they try to impose these conditions is basically to stop buck fever! Apparently if they were to give me the .243 I would forget everthing I know and go and shoot the forest up trying to bag a trophy!?! That is their reasoning for granting for fox but not deer.
He has said that they will review each and every application on its own merit and if I can prove good reason and prior experience there should't be a problem.
So there you have it, I guess I'll go with the flow for now and see what they say when it comes to it. But it would seem that it was definately worth asking and questioning what my FEO had said.
Many thanks for all the advice,
Ads

 

[Orion]

He said the reason they try to impose these conditions is basically to stop buck fever! Apparently if they were to give me the .243 I would forget everthing I know and go and shoot the forest up trying to bag a trophy!?! That is their reasoning for granting for fox but not deer.

I'd like to see that in writing from them! It would be worthwhile getting it just so it could be reprinted in as many shooting magazines as possible.

What complete and utter tosh given that you have already been authorised to use your .223 on deer on an 'open' ticket. I hope you'll ensure that they also make your .243 'open' in the circumstances? Why not just refer them back to your existing FAC instead of running around satisfying their unwarranted lust for 'evidence' - surely they must realise how stupid they would look if it went any further?

Idiots!

 

[Brithunter]

Your dealing with Sussex a legend in their own Minds and the ethos was created by the right royal loonie Brian Ellis who was the licensing officer for many years and cost Sussex Police many thousands in court costs when they lost over his stupid decisions.

 

[Si]

He said the reason they try to impose these conditions is basically to stop buck fever! Apparently if they were to give me the .243 I would forget everthing I know and go and shoot the forest up trying to bag a trophy!?!

That's got to be up there with the nominations for FLO quote of the decade

 

[JC275]

Your dealing with Sussex a legend in their own Minds and the ethos was created by the right royal loonie Brian Ellis who was the licensing officer for many years and cost Sussex Police many thousands in court costs when they lost over his stupid decisions.

You've forgotton the other half of the comedy duo, Rodney Ash, together they made the Sussex Police Firearms dept what it is today! JC

 

[Jagare]

Well The idiot Ellis may be gone from police HQ in Lewes but it looks like they are still up to there old tricks . I delt with sussex for over 30 years and always had a open ticket. They used to put a extra form in with the renewal form asking for a bit of named ground. I allways screwed it up and threw it away and told them there was no chance i would fill it out. The FAC form at the time asked where did you intend to shoot each of the weapons, so i always wrote , in the UK.
I did have one chat with Ellis but got him round to my way of thinking when i threatened court action if my FAC was not back PDQ.

 

[flytie]

Ads, I don't think there is an easy way to the end of your problem, unless you have the funds to get decent legal representation.

I have a fairly long running dispute with West Mercia over "Any Other Lawful Quarry", which I want on my FAC. West Mercia and their regional group have decided not to implement the 2002 ACPO guidelines and will not give a cogent reason for their refusal, just that they are "happy to provide specific conditions as required". Which they are patently not!

So far I have letters from the Firearms Manager and the Chief Constables Staff Officer. I now have my MP on the case and have copied her all my correspondence. Scanners and email are wonderful things I thought she might be interested that the Government pay ACPO huge sums of money to sit on committees and to come up with solutions to problems and police authorities ignore their solutions and refuse to implement them.

The only advice I can give is to keep a paper-trail, get written replies, get comfirmation in writing of any conversations with the Firearms Department or their representatives. And if you find a loophole in their argument, keep picking away and don't give up. If we keep pointing out Firearms Departments stupidities to the people who fund them, hopefully someone will take notice. Your variation of calibre and the restrictions being proposed is, to my mind, a perfect example of the stupidity regularly to be found coming out of licensing departments from all over England.

Keep fighting

ft