Tell me again why public access stalking isn’t a viable option

[Pete6.5]

There will always be people that don't have what they want but think it should be cheap or given to them rather than getting out there and doing the hard work/networking to get it.

 

[gelert]

A tag system could theoretically work, especially for species like red deer in Scotland or high-pressure areas in England. But it would need strong support from government, landowners, and conservation groups all singing off the same hymn sheet plus solid data infrastructure.

 

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[Klenchblaize]

I can only repeat my sadness that Forestry Commission Scotland & England (or whatever they are now called) ceased offering Ranger Accompanied Deertalking. This was a fantastic opportunity for the passionate but devoid of opportunity UK rifle hunter to realise a dream at far from excessive cost in some of this Country's finest wild places.

I speak from personal experience.

K

 

[sgurrdamh]

I’ve put a lot of time into arguing for and trying to come up with solutions that combine public access to stalking and good deer management.

I can tell you right now that the situation at Loch Choire, or actually any situation where there are “issues” like this with deer culling is not the scenario.

I don’t think there are many bigger advocate for better access than me, but saying “I’ll come and do a good job of this f@&?k up when I’m not being a lawyer/plumber/only fans model” only harms the cause and broadens a gap between professional and recreational stalkers. Both are part of the problem, but the solution has to be driven as much by one as by the other.

If anyone wants to get involved in taking steps to change the status quo in an intelligent and potentially effective way then message me. There is lots to be done.

 

[HonestJohn]

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This^

 

[Rake Aboot]

There will always be people that don't have what they want but think it should be cheap or given to them rather than getting out there and doing the hard work/networking to get it.

If you think that is what this thread is about you clearly have no understanding of this subject .

 

[Dan Newcombe]

Out of interest. If the stalking at Loch Choire was made public and you can just have at it (subject to F&C, insurance, qualifications etc) - who would be responsible when the numbers didn’t magically nose dive to ‘acceptable’ levels (whatever they become as we move forward) because of all the new fantastically effective stalkers who don’t currently have enough to keep them busy?

 

[caorach]

On the other hand, it could be easily made to work in woodland with rides/tracks and lots of high seats and boxes. This I think is one of the reasons for why it often works really well in a lot of the US public areas - they tend to spend the bulk of their time in tree stands.

One other thing to note about the system in the USA is that they had fitted tracking collars to the deer to see how their behaviour changed during the hunting season etc. It occurred to them to do the same with the hunters as they had info on where the hunters claimed to hunt but had never verified it. The hunters all claimed to be walking miles, covering lots of ground and so on. The result of the study was that the average maximum distance a hunter went from his truck during a hunt was something like 200 yards.

 

[Mungo]

One other thing to note about the system in the USA is that they had fitted tracking collars to the deer to see how their behaviour changed during the hunting season etc. It occurred to them to do the same with the hunters as they had info on where the hunters claimed to hunt but had never verified it. The hunters all claimed to be walking miles, covering lots of ground and so on. The result of the study was that the average maximum distance a hunter went from his truck during a hunt was something like 200 yards.

Yup.

I know one of the people that did this.

He got a lot of abuse!

The data very clearly show the deer rapidly avoiding the areas with hunters in.

 

[Pete6.5]

If you think that is what this thread is about you clearly have no understanding of this subject .

Ok so let's say I've got no experience of letting people have access to stalking year round for free. Why would you like to see a system put it place as you describe?

 

[Rake Aboot]

Ok so let's say I've got no experience of letting people have access to stalking year round for free. Why would you like to see a system put it place as you describe?

What is it you think this thread is about ? Have you even read it ?

 

[caorach]

I have to wonder if "public access" stalking wouldn't lead to an increase in poaching (if it can get any worse than it is) as people take the view that it is free so even if they don't have a tag or permission they can just go ahead anyhow.

In both stalking and fishing I also see a lot of people who will spend £3k on the latest scope but who have serious problems spending £200 on a day at hinds, they begrudge every penny of it. I'm given to think that for many people being willing to spend the cash on their stalking, rather than on gadgets, might greatly increase their access to sport. It is the same in fishing where we see people with £1000 fly rods who don't want to spend £25 on a season permit and I can be pretty certain that next season they will turn up with a different £1000 fly rod. I'm going to suggest that there might be an abundance of stalking available in the UK for anyone willing to pay the market rate for it. I'm also going to suggest that, for many people, the market rate will be considerably less than what they spend on gadgets each year.

Equally so called "sportsmen" these days seem to have rather inflated expectations and one thing that stalking alone on "public access" ground will not do is deliver on those expectations. As a result I'm going to suggest that the people demanding public access will also be the people dissatisfied with the results they get and I don't know where that will end up. It is also the case that with the bigger deer and the wilder areas an individual would need considerable investment if they were to be able to extract deer and purchasing and maintaining this would be much more costly than simply booking days.

It may also be worthwhile to consider the agenda of the people, for example the National Socialists in Scotland, who are keen to get most "wild land" into public ownership. You need to ask yourself if they are the people who you'd like to put in control of deer stalking as that is probably what would happen once we get open access stalking.

It is also useful to look at how the whole thing operates in the USA - I'm going to suggest that when faced with similar practical limitations (say only a tag to shoot one deer per year) a lot of people may not be too pleased.

 

[Rake Aboot]

None of that sounds very valid when deer aren’t being shot though does it ?

 

[25 Sharps]

None of that sounds very valid when deer aren’t being shot though does it ?

You’re missing the point, if contractors are brought in the deer will be shot in an effective way with the sale of the venison going some way towards covering the costs.

Having a tag system whereby a few individuals go an take a few deer, as that is what will happen when you have one stalker at a time on ground they do not know, will achieve very little. Certainly, nothing like the numbers that will be achieved by an organised cull carried out by experienced contractors.

 

[Rake Aboot]

It seems it’s you that’s missing the point I’m afraid

No one here is offering a cull solution for places where deer aren’t being shot left till the contractors have to come in and have a mass cull.

The whole point of this thread is that an effective solution to offering public access stalking would and could work.
What’s worse is that it shouldn’t threaten pro stalkers but they certainly seem threatened by it .

 

[25 Sharps]

It seems it’s you that’s missing the point I’m afraid

No one here is offering a cull solution for places where deer aren’t being shot left till the contractors have to come in and have a mass cull.

The whole point of this thread is that an effective solution to offering public access stalking would and could work.
What’s worse is that it shouldn’t threaten pro stalkers but they certainly seem threatened by it .

Your opinion is that it will have an effect on overall numbers, my opinion is there are nowhere near enough capable and suitably equipped amateur stalkers to actually make a difference. That’s before taking the cost of the logistics of trying to arrange it safely.

I’m a fairly dedicated amateur lowland stalker I’m under no illusions that I’m capable of getting out on my own and being effective on unknown ground across the highlands. Yes I could get out and shoot the odd deer, that won’t make any difference though.

You’ve asked a question at the start of this thread and plenty of people have answered, you just don’t like the answer. You also haven’t put forward any basis or system of how and why a tag system would be effective, just that it ‘would and could’ work. No idea on uptake, numbers of stalkers required, how the tag system would work, how the interaction with private landowners would be managed, the same for the public.

Just pie in the sky nonsense!

 

[Rake Aboot]

I actually did like the answers , most of them differ from yours mind .
To suggest amateurs cannot make a difference with a ignoring the fact that amateurs account for the vast majority of Roe stalking so there is no reason whatsoever they cannot account for a meaningful number of Red

You keep hoping it’s pie in the sky , maybe one day it won’t be and you’ll be disappointed.

 

[Cloudhopper]

Your opinion is that it will have an effect on overall numbers, my opinion is there are nowhere near enough capable and suitably equipped amateur stalkers to actually make a difference. That’s before taking the cost of the logistics of trying to arrange it safely.

I’m a fairly dedicated amateur lowland stalker I’m under no illusions that I’m capable of getting out on my own and being effective on unknown ground across the highlands. Yes I could get out and shoot the odd deer, that won’t make any difference though.

You’ve asked a question at the start of this thread and plenty of people have answered, you just don’t like the answer. You also haven’t put forward any basis or system of how and why a tag system would be effective, just that it ‘would and could’ work. No idea on uptake, numbers of stalkers required, how the tag system would work, how the interaction with private landowners would be managed, the same for the public.

Just pie in the sky nonsense!

I've suggested an alternative system that works very well elsewhere. It wasn't well received though, seems there are too many with vested interests.
CH

 

[opticron1]

To go back to the original post (about the Loch Choire Estate). I do find it quite sad that despite all the twaddle that emanates from SNP central about land reform, we still have individuals/groups/investors buying up Estates and obviously have no idea what running an Estate entails. Should there not be a guide to let the owner(s) understand the idea of deer management provided before any purchase goes through? It might also be an idea to have the various options for culling/stalking included in the sale particulars.
An estate I used to take an odd Red on was bought by someone with no desire to fish or stalk and the new owner was mightily surprised when he was informed culling would take place and he would be invoiced for it. Sadly, many Estates these days seem to bought by folk with no idea whatsoever about running them and they seem to think the Estate will just make loads of money from grants etc....