That old thread 'is a .243 enough?'

[deerwarden]

I read a book called "pack and rifle" about a deer culler in New Zealand who killed hundreds of deer with his 243 Sako, so I bought my Sako 591 many years ago, still have as it was my first rifle, cracked the stock and Trevor Procter restocked it, and gave it a brown metal finish to make the rifle look like a custom English made rile. Light and handy on the hill it killed countless Red deer, and many Sika stags as well with no issues I can remember. The secret was the bullet, a member on here was a stalker up north who also liked to use a 243, he wrote articles in the "Stalking Magazine" one of them was titled "A thing of Purpose" I believe, about his acquirement of a new 243 rifle to use on the hill. His secret to success was the bullet he used in his reloads, a Speer 105 gn round nose, I bought and used them on the annual trips to my F.C. stalkers friends in the highlands, they loved the "wee rifle" because it was so light to carry and the Speers rolled deer over time and time again. The bullet was discontinued, however I still have a hundred of them left, they performed out of proportion to their size, my regret is I didn't buy more than I did. I'm sure Muir will have used them in his time, deerwarden

 

[User00033]

A lot of my family and friends are Metis or Cree . What part of Canada was your Grandfather living in ? Sorry for the derail. AB

Smoky Falls originally, then Thunder Bay later in life. He married a Cree descended woman in 1987 who is now my Great Aunt, kind of, lovely lady! PM sent!

Which stock did you end up with? Is that for the Creedmoor?

Yup, the 6.5CM stock arrived yesterday. A Boyds AT-One in Pepper. With the budget for this build top of mind (low for rifle / stock / suppressor with mid-range glass) and the limitations of what we can get here, I went with this stock based on past acceptable performance of Boyds stocks. I had to get a fully adjustable buttstock to allow for my boys to start learning centrefire and of course The Wife, who is a shortarse.



I am going to reserve judgement for the time being, there’s definitely some issues that may or may not be resolvable. Can’t say I’m particularly happy. I’ve already had the 180, 240 and 400 grit sandpaper out and made some progress, but overall the urethane finish is poor inside the forend inlet and action, creating lumps, and there’s a concern whether I am going to be able to get enough clearance to the barrel. It free floats – just – but you’ve got to really manipulate the barrel / forend as you tighten the front action screw to make sure they don’t end up touching, and the barrel will not sit evenly in the inlet.

I always intended bedding this rifle with MatchGrade Bedding Compound, and I may well add pillars too, we’ll see. Not going to worry too much about it now as my neighbour – who got the Boyds Varmint Pro – also struggled initially but has ended up with a tack driver of note.

…and launching them into space consistently with a 300 weatherby using 220gr interlocks causes way to much meat damage but they never make it more than 5m.

I’m not surprised.

I read a book called "pack and rifle" about a deer culler in New Zealand who killed hundreds of deer with his 243 Sako, so I bought my Sako 591 many years ago, still have as it was my first rifle, cracked the stock and Trevor Procter restocked it, and gave it a brown metal finish to make the rifle look like a custom English made rile. Light and handy on the hill it killed countless Red deer, and many Sika stags as well with no issues I can remember. The secret was the bullet, a member on here was a stalker up north who also liked to use a 243, he wrote articles in the "Stalking Magazine" one of them was titled "A thing of Purpose" I believe, about his acquirement of a new 243 rifle to use on the hill. His secret to success was the bullet he used in his reloads, a Speer 105 gn round nose, I bought and used them on the annual trips to my F.C. stalkers friends in the highlands, they loved the "wee rifle" because it was so light to carry and the Speers rolled deer over time and time again. The bullet was discontinued, however I still have a hundred of them left, they performed out of proportion to their size, my regret is I didn't buy more than I did. I'm sure Muir will have used them in his time, deerwarden

Pack and Rifle by the late Philip Holden is one of New Zealand’s iconic outdoor / hunting histories, a gem of a book, mandatory reading, and the reason to this day why the .222 and .243 Sakos of the 60s and 70s are still so highly prized here. For good reason.

That Speer 105gr round nose bullet – would it be #1223 by any chance?

Because if that’s the case, that’s what my Grandpa used for years in the 70s, that’s what I would have used around 1979 when he first let me shoot his CZ .243. A very soft, highly frangible pill that obliterated the lungs. There’s an old photo he took of the #1223 page in the .243 Win section of the Speer Reloading Number 9 (1974) because the book fell apart and he was too tight to buy a new one. I scanned that photo and the remains of the book is, I believe, in the loft in my parents house in the UK.

 

[75sako]

I have use 243 for 30years and never had a problem on deer or fox very versatile calibre

 

[Jagare]

Shot quite a few fallow with that Speer 105grn round nose bullet. That was in the 1970s. How time fly's.

 

[Bigboab29]

243 is big enough for any deer in scotland!! if you cant drop them with a 243 learn to aim better.

 

[Ray7756]

Check this video out best explanation i have heard


Hope the link works
cheers
Ray

 

[bogtrotter]

I just remember for years my Grandpa bemoaning how small and poxy the deer in Scotland were.

Let's hear someone say that after dragging the bu@@er for four hours.

 

[deerwarden]

dodgyknees Yep that's the one, I still have just over a hundred of them left in a box and assembled rounds, sad to hear Philip Holden has passed away, If I remember correctly, he was using a BSA 222 before he bought the Sako 243. In my late twenties I worked for Granada TV rentals in Walthamstow, London. I saw an advert by a company called Tiscos looking for TV engineers in the U.K. to emigrate to N.Z. I applied and was accepted to emigrate, however my wife had a horse and refused to go unless we took it as well. That would have taken all of the £900 I had saved at that to fly it out there, my dream for us and the kids to escape to the new world fell through, I divorced the bitch 5 years later, loved Phillips books, also another one by a real old time culler, Harry something, tells how he would saw off the tips of military ammo so they expanded upon impact and dropped the deer. The cullers had to cut the tails off as evidence they were killing deer and show their boss when they were airlifted out. New Zealand was my dream destination to live, sadly a regret to this day. A mans world supported by strong woeman by all accounts. deerwarden

 

[deerwarden]

Used my 243 for around ten years in the eighties, I had F.C. rangers who wanted me up there twice a year to help get their culls in. They loved the "wee rifle" as it was pounds lighter than their 270s. my best week was 54 reds in 6 days, and on another occasion 19 in one day. Hard work climbing the hills to the tops, once there kill all they selected, it got better once they had Quad bikes, but hairy going down the hill, they wrote off two that got away from them and they had to bailout. deerwarden

 

[User00033]

Let's hear someone say that after dragging the bu@@er for four hours.

Aye, fair point. We bone them out in the bush, can’t drag them far unless it’s downhill all the way (too steep) and carrying them is not an option except for the young, strong, fit and foolish (knee surgery awaits in later life).

Whoever designed the 4 wheel motorbike should be honoured in the same league as Henry Ford and Enzo Ferrari. A clever Suzuki team I believe, not Honda. I wait as long as I can to allow the animal to get gravity on my side, for a drag downhill to a spot where I can safely get the quad and trailer to pick it up!

 

[Boarboy]

There is one big difference between the USA/NZ and our shooting conditions. Our permissions can be very small and if a deer runs only 50yds because an inferior cartridge/bullet combination it could be over the fence. Often a deer cannot be retrieved from a neighbours land. The worst combination I ever saw was the 6.5x55, 22" barrel and 156 lapua mega bullet. Even good heart lung shot Sika ran well over 100yds. The owner of the rifle had many "misses", quiet a few lost deer.
I have shot plenty deer with 243 and 308. Overall I think the 308 kills quicker. I don't think the 243 is the worst but especially at longer ranges I prefer the 308.
Bullet, cartridge and shot placement should match. Often we can't do much about shot placement, especially after the shot.... but we can do something about the cartridge and bullet we use.
edi

this is an interesting point. I shot both .243 and .308 for years. I was happy with my .243 but I took on some land adjacent to a forestry block. Within the forest lived an individual who would always come out as soon as he heard any shots, often shouting abuse from the boundary. I solely use my .308 in this situation just to a avoid any deer running back into said forest across the boundary. It "generally" drops them on the spot.

 

[Border]

Check this video out best explanation i have heard


Hope the link works
cheers
Ray

Interesting link, thanks for that.
Nathan Fosters blog also has some good information on game killing.
It appears that for quick killing the classic heart lung shot is best reversed ie the lungs being the primary aimpoint with the heart being collateral damage.

 

[baguio]

If the 243 wasn't a dubious calibre on large deer there wouldn't be these regular threads on their effectiveness. Sure they will kill deer but so will calibres much smaller. However, if you're regularly going to be shooting stags down south I would not recommend a 243. East Anglian red hind are the same size as Scottish stags. When shooting big stags (Red and Sika) and even fallow bucks, I want them to drop close to where they were shot and often really close or they will be unrecoverable. Would a 243 be my first choice for shooting them? Absolutely not and you will not find too many others with a choice taking it either. Experience is a great teacher!

 

[User00033]

If the 243 wasn't a dubious calibre on large deer there wouldn't be these regular threads on their effectiveness. Sure they will kill deer but so will calibres much smaller. However, if you're regularly going to be shooting stags down south I would not recommend a 243. East Anglian red hind are the same size as Scottish stags. When shooting big stags (Red and Sika) and even fallow bucks, I want them to drop close to where they were shot and often really close or they will be unrecoverable. Would a 243 be my first choice for shooting them? Absolutely not and you will not find too many others with a choice taking it either. Experience is a great teacher!

What did your experience teach you? If a large red hind isn’t dropping at or close to where it was shot with a .243, that is because it’s being shot in the wrong place and/or with the wrong type of bullet. This can be the only possible explanation, for those of us (and there are many, contrary to what you might think) that regularly shoot large red hinds with a .243 watch them either collapse on the spot or make a few yards before collapsing. Often from far longer ranges than seems to be “acceptable” in the UK. If the rifle wasn’t capable of achieving this outcome 99 times out of a 100 do you think we would persist with using something not up to the job?

I don’t buy the arguement (clearly), it suggests that most deer hit with a .243 run much further than larger calibres. That’s utter bollox. Different species, conditions, calibre, rifle makes or medium game expanding bullets - variations in these factors have made very little difference in my experience. Using a .243 Win, or a .223 Rem, .25-06, 6.5mm, various 7mm, .308 Win, bolts, semis, lever, single shots... What seperates their performance is practice, patience, understanding anatomy, understanding ballistics, bullet construction.

There’s a lot of shooters out there without much of any of these skills... snap shots at game in thick cover, or as they shape to run, or in questionable light, or from a questionable angle... all these factors add up to runners, and yet the finger gets pointed at the calibre or the bullet. And the history of whatever calibre, the years and years of proven capability written up in the annals of the sport from all over the world, is ignored.

On the 4 continents I’ve lived and hunted medium game over the years, I can break down the requirement of the rifle, load and bullet into three basic types of deer shooting that I enjoy, each requiring a different approach.

1. Open country short to medium range (say up to 350m).
2. Open country medium range (300m to say 600m).
3. Closed country wooded / scrub short range (20m to say 120m)

I haven’t gotten into the proper long range stuff. That’s a whole different ballgame.

The prevailing norms for these categories vary from place to place in the world, that’s been my experience. Where “slow and heavy” might be the norm in E Africa, it will be “light and fast” in parts of the US for game in the same weight range. What I will say is this: anyone who thinks the .243 Win is an unreliable cartridge in category 1 is either lacking in some of the aforementioned basic skills, or is simply a bad shot. The rest of what I’m thinking I already said on page 2!

 

[Border]

Dodgyknees,
Which bullet do you favour for red/fallow shooting with 243W?

 

[User00033]

Dodgyknees, Which bullet do you favour for red/fallow shooting with 243W?

Sierra ProHunter 100gr (1540). Have used it on and off for years, always in 1:10” twists, going back to my first centrefire CZ ZKK 601. I don’t load them hot. It works extremely well with a good balance between weight retention and fragmentation. The 1” in front of the line of the front leg shot placement with this pill will usually drop the animal within 5-10m of the point of impact, about 50% will be instant collapse. Sometimes there’s a bit of staggering around and copious blood streaming out of the nose before it falls over. The big difference between this shot placement and bullet type, versus rear of the shoulder heart shots with tougher controlled expansion bullets, is that the animal doesn’t (can’t) run full tilt in shock and cover enough distance to risk being lost. The ProHunter’s fragmentation and destruction of the lungs, surrounding arteries and nerve ganglia will take up 90% of the energy and you will find a 40-60gr remnant sitting against the hide on he opposite side. On fallow and yearling reds, the tougher bullets well rear of the shoulder tend to punch right through and not dump enough energy inside the rib cage, that’s been my experience.

The BC of the ProHunter is pretty ordinary but its a very consistent pill, because I don’t use it much past 300-350m the BC doesn’t really come into play. I avoid stiff crosswinds, as much because in this kind of country you’ll be winded anyway. I holdover using the BDC reticle and get the same drop everytime. Lots of practice, a couple of fouling shots and a zero check...

 

[Roro]

I've seen the american version of this argument, people arguing you need a .300 magnum of some description, else the deer will give a shake and trot off like they have just been hit with an airgun pellet. Then someone reminds them that a .30-30 lever action has probably taken more deer than all the other calibres combined.

In ireland, due to the 30 years of murder and mayhem, we were restricted to the .22-250 and 5.6x57 as our main deer calibres, plenty of deer of all species and sizes were killed, to most stalkers here, a .243 would have been a dream.

 

[Chasey]

Great post Dodgyknees

As for buillets?

My choice Nosla BT70g 3546fps home load 41g Varget Head shot (devastating) 1955 ft lb

100g 2960 fps Federal power shok for heart shot 1954ft lb

 

[Border]

Thanks for detailed reply

 

[Triggermortis]

40 years ago i was told .243 was not suitable for big fallow. Strange that all the big fallow i shot with the .243 died. On another thread our NZ contributors seem to shoot large red stags with .243 at good distances. I doubt the UK's red stags are harder to kill than those in NZ.

I seem to recall reading somewhere that the at one point the go to weopon/method of choice for culling reds in NZ was to neck them with a .222rem, whilst i understand a .222 isnt legal here for all species i do think if more stalkers consentrated on improving their accuracy than buying the latest super duper magnum round that seems to be in fasion at the time just to cover their lack of marksmanship then maybe there would be less wounded deer running off, makes no difference whatsoever what calibre was used to clip a deer through the jaw, windpipe or shoulder, i once witnessed a deer jaw shot with a 300 RUM, still needed a half hour foot follow up and a chest shot to kill it.