That old thread 'is a .243 enough?'

I seem to recall reading somewhere that the at one point the go to weopon/method of choice for culling reds in NZ was to neck them with a .222rem, whilst i understand a .222 isnt legal here for all species i do think if more stalkers consentrated on improving their accuracy than buying the latest super duper magnum round that seems to be in fasion at the time just to cover their lack of marksmanship then maybe there would be less wounded deer running off, makes no difference whatsoever what calibre was used to clip a deer through the jaw, windpipe or shoulder, i once witnessed a deer jaw shot with a 300 RUM, still needed a half hour foot follow up and a chest shot to kill it.

That was very much the case with the .222 in NZ, however the cartridge has largely been superceded with the .223 Rem. The Sako Vixens and BSA Monarchs were the go, and both command top dollar if in good to excellent condition today.

95% of my shooting is on private land with other livestock farmers. Nearly all the blokes I shoot with use a .223 to shoot deer in the head or neck, at night, when shooting for control purposes, which usually doubles up as a chance to restock the freezers, and supply the elderly in the area. These are proper Kiwis who grew up on the land, not imports like me who despite having a pastoralist background in the UK never spent anything like the hours in the field at night as these guys did.

They are highly skilled shooters. Very, very good.

Personally, I avoided the head shooting option, probably because my Grandpa frowned on it, and instead practiced, and got pretty good at, shooting them in the lower neck or hilar zone (see page 2). The latter became the norm when I moved into very steep country where shooting across gullies was the go, and ranges typically exceeded 200m.

So there’s roughly 10 guys who I’ll hunt with at some point in the course of a year. My neighbour is the most prolific. His latest acquisition? A 6.5 Creedmoor for use out to ~600 yards. His normal quad rifle? A Sako 75 in .223 Rem. He has a beaut old 7x64 Brenneke which comes out occasionally, when the weather is good. The 7mm is the heaviest of his 15 odd hunting rifles. He shoots a lot of deer. Probably 80% with the .223 Rem.

Of the other blokes, there isn’t a single shooter using magnums of any description. There’s an assortment of .22-250s, several .223s (my other mate who I shoot with a lot also uses a T3 Super Varmint in .223), there must be a dozen or more .243s, a couple of .25-06, three or four .270s, two 6.5CMs now, the Mauser hand-me-downs in 6.5x55 Swede. Only a couple of us have .308s, we don’t use them that much, mostly on the annual S Island stag hunt. There isn’t a single .30-06 to the best of my knowledge.

The heaviest bolt action by far is a Savage in .338 Federal that was bought specifically for use on pigs, but has proven to be an excellent deer gun. All the other heavy guns are single shot or lever action .44s... Ruger #1s, Bergara, Henry and two rather awesome Marlin 1895s in .45-70 Govt., which are used again for big pigs but also on thickly wooded close range stag hunts. You really, really wanna have a go with one of those.

So I reckon, as a rough as guts average guesstimate, about 75% of the however many hundred deer shot by these blokes every year, are shot using projectiles weighing 100gr or less. Of these, at least half will be shot using pills in the 55-90gr range. The balance will be the various 95gr and 100gr 6mm pills.

Of the remaining 25%, the most common is the probably .270 though I reckon the 6.5CM will overtake the .270, .25-06 & the Swede real quick. Long actions are falling out of favour. Perhaps the single most desired attribute of the rifle & cartridge combination is being able to maintain the target in the field of view to observe the immediate aftermath of the bullet strike.

Pretty much the only time we see big magnums is when a city boy comes out to the country to go hunting.
 
Of course, if everything was shot perfectly, be it head or neck whilst hitting the spine it's not going to run. The world isn't like that I'm afraid. The margin for error isn't enough for average Jo with a 243 which is why most of us have up calibred to something more powerful that also give an out shot at extended range. Plenty of the guys I know shoot a lot of Sika and large reds but none would recommend a new comer to buy a 243. Why would you when there are plenty of smooth shooting accurate but more powerful calibres out there? It's not about proving that you can kill just as well in order to satisfy your ego. It's about putting deer on the floor quickly. I am also allowed to recover deer from over the boundary, however, I cannot lift reds over the 4 foot fence without cutting it into pieces! On my permissions a 243 just isn't suitable. Bolllox doesn't come in to it!
 
An objective look at the issue... the punchline is at 4:20. Enjoy the occasional yee haa. In New Zealand we never hug each other though. Not done. Nor do we yee haa.

 
It's not about proving that you can kill just as well in order to satisfy your ego.

That is a silly, emotional statement.

You are more than welcome to use whatever calibre and cartridge you like. I don’t care. Shoot whatever you’re comfortable with, which in this thread, I believe I have said before. Or was it another one? Just make sure you hit them the right place.

If you pitched up here mate with that kind of attitude, invited or not, you’d quickly find your privileges withdrawn, a definite trip home empty handed.
 
As a newcomer to all this, this is a great discussion - very informative and much appreciated.

I have one question which may be a non-issue. I get the impression that there is a far narrower range of factory ammo available in the UK than in other countries where rifle hunting is more common. For non-home loaders, is there sufficient variety of .243 ammo available in the UK to be able to pick one that will deal with all except the largest deer/longest reasonable ranges, assuming correct shot placement?

I ask as I was planning on applying for .308 when I submit my FAC application, with a view to it being the only calibre I'll need for all deer in England and Scotland plus the occasional wild boar.

If .243 factory ammo would serve me just as well except for the boar then it would be good to know, in case I end up in discussions with the FEO about suitable calibres.
 
The choice of factory ammunition and being better suited to wild boar is why I went for the .308.
My closest RFD has two choices of factory .243, this pretty much sealed the deal for me. I'm in Ireland and with no option of home loading ''twas an easy choice.
 
I ask as I was planning on applying for .308 when I submit my FAC application, with a view to it being the only calibre I'll need for all deer in England and Scotland plus the occasional wild boar.

If .243 factory ammo would serve me just as well except for the boar then it would be good to know, in case I end up in discussions with the FEO about suitable calibres.

I hope you will have the presence of mind to ensure that your application goes forward with your choice of cartridge and not the FEO’s. ;) A thorough read and understanding of the HOG chapter 13 will help you present your case should you be unfortunate enough to meet with the mantra of ‘it’s smaller, so it must be better’.

Good luck with it.
 
That was very much the case with the .222 in NZ, however the cartridge has largely been superceded with the .223 Rem. The Sako Vixens and BSA Monarchs were the go, and both command top dollar if in good to excellent condition today.

95% of my shooting is on private land with other livestock farmers. Nearly all the blokes I shoot with use a .223 to shoot deer in the head or neck, at night, when shooting for control purposes, which usually doubles up as a chance to restock the freezers, and supply the elderly in the area. These are proper Kiwis who grew up on the land, not imports like me who despite having a pastoralist background in the UK never spent anything like the hours in the field at night as these guys did.

They are highly skilled shooters. Very, very good.

Personally, I avoided the head shooting option, probably because my Grandpa frowned on it, and instead practiced, and got pretty good at, shooting them in the lower neck or hilar zone (see page 2). The latter became the norm when I moved into very steep country where shooting across gullies was the go, and ranges typically exceeded 200m.

So there’s roughly 10 guys who I’ll hunt with at some point in the course of a year. My neighbour is the most prolific. His latest acquisition? A 6.5 Creedmoor for use out to ~600 yards. His normal quad rifle? A Sako 75 in .223 Rem. He has a beaut old 7x64 Brenneke which comes out occasionally, when the weather is good. The 7mm is the heaviest of his 15 odd hunting rifles. He shoots a lot of deer. Probably 80% with the .223 Rem.

Of the other blokes, there isn’t a single shooter using magnums of any description. There’s an assortment of .22-250s, several .223s (my other mate who I shoot with a lot also uses a T3 Super Varmint in .223), there must be a dozen or more .243s, a couple of .25-06, three or four .270s, two 6.5CMs now, the Mauser hand-me-downs in 6.5x55 Swede. Only a couple of us have .308s, we don’t use them that much, mostly on the annual S Island stag hunt. There isn’t a single .30-06 to the best of my knowledge.

The heaviest bolt action by far is a Savage in .338 Federal that was bought specifically for use on pigs, but has proven to be an excellent deer gun. All the other heavy guns are single shot or lever action .44s... Ruger #1s, Bergara, Henry and two rather awesome Marlin 1895s in .45-70 Govt., which are used again for big pigs but also on thickly wooded close range stag hunts. You really, really wanna have a go with one of those.

So I reckon, as a rough as guts average guesstimate, about 75% of the however many hundred deer shot by these blokes every year, are shot using projectiles weighing 100gr or less. Of these, at least half will be shot using pills in the 55-90gr range. The balance will be the various 95gr and 100gr 6mm pills.

Of the remaining 25%, the most common is the probably .270 though I reckon the 6.5CM will overtake the .270, .25-06 & the Swede real quick. Long actions are falling out of favour. Perhaps the single most desired attribute of the rifle & cartridge combination is being able to maintain the target in the field of view to observe the immediate aftermath of the bullet strike.

Pretty much the only time we see big magnums is when a city boy comes out to the country to go hunting.

I am surprised no old sporterised lee enfields are used, thought they would be very common over there.
 
The debate about whether big calibres are better than the likes of a .243 etc. has some similarities (to my mind) with differences of opinion regarding scope power, with some saying all you really need for a large animals like deer within medium ranges of say 250 yards is, for example, a quality 4x fixed power (lighter, no messing, better FOV, more rapid target acquisition, less perceived shake, etc.), and others holding that big magnification variables are necessary (choice of power, better appraisal of quarry before shot, more precise shot placement, etc.).

Each to their own I suppose, it's all part of what makes deer stalking such a fascinating sport.
 
The debate about whether big calibres are better than the likes of a .243 etc..........

Here’s my solution to the issue:

302px-58614_1.webp

Nearly 50 year old Blaser ES67 .243/12b. A nice short, light and handy gun for pottering around with, that will cover most situations with a mix of cartridges in the pocket - if the .243 isn’t man enough, then a 12b slug should sort it out! :D I jest of course, but that probably makes as much sense as most of the points for and against already raised in this thread.

The above is a library pic as I’m currently refurbing mine to get it ready for my grandchildren to learn with.
 
The main reason I choose the 6.5mm for reds on the hill over the 6mm is the exposed distances you sometimes shoot over. The bullet choice available to the 6.5mm user let's you opt for high BC bullets. I prefer these not because I want to get out to 600 meters, but because they retain more energy and suffer from less wind drift.

My 6mm Lapua shooting Sierra 100 grain Prohunters (my preferred rifle for all my lowland/woodland stalking of all species) at 300 meters is carrying 1150 ftLb of energy (started with 2200) and in 10mph wind drifts 9 1/2".

My 6.5mm Lapua shooting 129 ABLR's at the same distance is carrying almost 1600 ftLb (started with 2400) and has only drifted 6". My 7mm08 almost replicates these numbers with a 150 ELD-X.

The 280AI shooting 150 ABLR's starts with 3200 ftLb, finishes with 2150, and has drifted 5.5". The deer don't go down much faster than with the 6.5mm or 7mm08.

My conclusion through my experiences is that a 6mm is great out to 200 meters and is all the gun you need for most UK stalking needs. If you want to stretch the distances much beyond 200 meters then the 6.5mm or 7mm08 is better for the job. The 280Ai is more gun than is required for UK stalking.

Long, high BC bullets in 6.5mm and 7mm have come a long way in the past few years and enable us to enjoy low recoiling rifles and still retain high levels of energy at distance.
 
Funnily enough, a young lad was out on one of my permissions only this morning with a more experienced guide. He only has a 243 and shot a red spiker through the chest at 40 ish metres. It ran like they often do with no outshot and no blood trail. They had one hell of a job finding it in the woods and were close to calling in the dog man before they found it stone dead. They also had fun dragging it out. That why it's recommended that a bigger calibre shooting heavier projectiles is used. You will be almost certain to get an outshot and blood trail even if they run. Up to you guys but why make things hard for yourself?
 
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That is a silly, emotional statement.

You are more than welcome to use whatever calibre and cartridge you like. I don’t care. Shoot whatever you’re comfortable with, which in this thread, I believe I have said before. Or was it another one? Just make sure you hit them the right place.

If you pitched up here mate with that kind of attitude, invited or not, you’d quickly find your privileges withdrawn, a definite trip home empty handed.
And you have just reminded me as to why I haven't been on here for so long. You crack on with your 243 and keep on tracking the ones that don't go perfectly. I don't suppose that we will hear about any of those though!
 
An objective look at the issue... the punchline is at 4:20. Enjoy the occasional yee haa. In New Zealand we never hug each other though. Not done. Nor do we yee haa.


That looks similar to my permissions apart from the thousands of metres of nothing for the deer to hide in! Easy to keep firing when they can't disappear into a wood after the first shot so in this case it clearly wouldn't matter if they dropped on the spot or not. Chalk and cheese me thinks?
 
Funnily enough, a young lad was out on one of my permissions only this morning with a more experienced guide. He only has a 243 and shot a red spiker through the chest at 40 ish metres. It ran like they often do with no outshot and no blood trail. They had one hell of a job finding it in the woods and were close to calling in the dog man before they found it stone dead. They also had fun dragging it out. That why it's recommended that a bigger calibre shooting heavier projectiles is used. You will be almost certain to get an outshot and blood trail even if they run. Up to you guys but why make things hard for yourself?

You got my vote. Double lunger, big blood trail. The small 243 hole can close up with no blood trail.
 
Funnily enough, a young lad was out on one of my permissions only this morning with a more experienced guide. He only has a 243 and shot a red spiker through the chest at 40 ish metres. It ran like they often do with no outshot and no blood trail. They had one hell of a job finding it in the woods and were close to calling in the dog man before they found it stone dead. They also had fun dragging it out. That why it's recommended that a bigger calibre shooting heavier projectiles is used. You will be almost certain to get an outshot and blood trail even if they run. Up to you guys but why make things hard for yourself?

G’Day Dexter. Maybe go back to post #54 and have a look at the bit where I said:

… three basic types of deer shooting that I enjoy, each requiring a different approach.

1. Open country short to medium range (say up to 350m).
2. Open country medium range (300m to say 600m).
3. Closed country wooded / scrub short range (20m to say 120m)


Which one did I refer to when discussing the .243 Winchester? (Clue: the first one.). I have a question for you – what kind of bullet was being used in the .243 yesterday? If I was expecting to be that close to the deer, I wouldn’t take a .243 bolt action. I hate sudden close range shots with rifles zeroed for open country, 100m or 200m. I'm crap at that range. That's when I've made mistakes... and more than a couple of times clean missed. Another potential problem is thin jacketed, low SD bullets driven at high velocity, like .243 velocities. They don't perform well, they can blow up on bone, or pencil straight through. Obviously I don't know what happened, just what I've experienced. For these reasons, at close range in the woods... read on.

Moving onto post #61, where I talked about the kinds of guns we use:

…All the other heavy guns are single shot or lever action .44s... Ruger #1s, Bergara, Henry and two rather awesome Marlin 1895s in .45-70 Govt., which are used again for big pigs but also on thickly wooded close range stag hunts.

I’ll add some detail to that comment, because it’s a bit generalised. There are two Ruger #1s in our group, a brand new one in .44 Rem Mag, the other is an older .338 Win Mag or something along those lines. There’s a couple of newish Bergaras BA13s, both in .308. There’s at least three .44 Mag Henrys. Of the Marlins, one is brand new and has been set up with 500gr cast bullets and 305gr “Xtreme Penetrators”. Interestingly, just this afternoon I mounted a new Vortex 1-6x24 on a Browning BAR in .308, for use in the woods.

These Dexter are the types of rifles we use in the close cover, on pigs and deer. We don’t take open country bolt actions into the woods very often. Hope that helps.

And you have just reminded me as to why I haven't been on here for so long. You crack on with your 243 and keep on tracking the ones that don't go perfectly. I don't suppose that we will hear about any of those though!

I’m glad you’re back. Haven’t had to track a deer for years. In the open country referred to above, its rather easy though. You watch them in the scope until they fall over, which is usually pretty bloody close to where they were shot. If for any reason you think you might have a runner, you shoot them again, but that hardly ever happens.

That looks similar to my permissions apart from the thousands of metres of nothing for the deer to hide in! Easy to keep firing when they can't disappear into a wood after the first shot so in this case it clearly wouldn't matter if they dropped on the spot or not. Chalk and cheese me thinks?

Glad to hear you have some woods to hunt in. I thought Norfolk was mostly flat, boggy reclaimed marsh land. Big pike though. You know, I didn’t even consider the setting of the video. Or the elk, or the calibres being used. Never occurred to me because that wasn’t really the point, was it? Not to worry. It’s a nice part of the world though. Sorry it didn’t have enough woods in it.

Lets call an honourable truce, eh? Because, like I said in post #14:

I’m not up for another argument about .243 vs the rest so I’m gonna try and take the discussion in another direction.

Well clearly I totally failed… sorry about that. However, did you read that post? Maybe that will give you some context for the later comments and my steadfast position. Because context is real important when debating what we use for our sport, why and what the pros and cons are. Because there are pros and cons to everything.
 
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Another potential problem is thin jacketed, low SD bullets driven at high velocity, like .243 velocities. They don't perform well, they can blow up on bone, or pencil straight through.

My (admittedly limited) understanding was that high sectional density - ie 'heavy for calibre' - bullets are the most likely to pencil straight through a deer, rather than the other way round (?).
 
And you have just reminded me as to why I haven't been on here for so long. You crack on with your 243 and keep on tracking the ones that don't go perfectly. I don't suppose that we will hear about any of those though!

So are you saying that anything shot with a calibre larger than a 243 will always fall straight over?
ive seen deer run when shot with 300 Rum, maybe no one thought to tell the deer what calibre it was shot with ?
 
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