That old thread 'is a .243 enough?'

I have a 243, great rifle, and had many, many roe to reds with them, but it is not the perfect rifle for everything, and lets not say it is or it could be we cannot use anything else for UK deer.
In some places i shoot i will take the 243 every time for reds, as the topography suits it. In some places i would use the 3006 every time. A lot of my shooting is open heather hill, and shots at 100 meters are rare, typically much longer. I shoot over 3 such places and will be out every week, i am not a pro, but am a very regular stalker. However, the deer are often 5 yards from the thick commercial pine forest edge, so thick that walking in it is impossible, and it is hands and knees only once in the forest. If we shoot a roe, even perfectly and it gets 5 yards into the forest it is an absolute sod to find and recover them, dragging anything whilst on your hands and knees is tough, and with a bad back is a real problem. If a red stag gets 5 yards into the forest, regardless of the size, then it will involve the argo, winches and potentially hours work, after having to use the dog to find it in the first place. If a red deer was to get 100 meters into the forest, i doubt we could recover it, luckily we have never had to try.
So anything that stops them more quickly than a 243 is ideal/better. So the same deer, shot at 180 meters with the 243, same point of impact, and a larger hole, more energy may drop it on the spot, it may not, and anything that (within sensible reason) should drop them quicker is, in our situation, better.
Is the 243 enough - yes. Are there situations where something larger could be better - in my situation, yes.
 
I have a 243, great rifle, and had many, many roe to reds with them, but it is not the perfect rifle for everything, and lets not say it is or it could be we cannot use anything else for UK deer.
In some places i shoot i will take the 243 every time for reds, as the topography suits it. In some places i would use the 3006 every time. A lot of my shooting is open heather hill, and shots at 100 meters are rare, typically much longer. I shoot over 3 such places and will be out every week, i am not a pro, but am a very regular stalker. However, the deer are often 5 yards from the thick commercial pine forest edge, so thick that walking in it is impossible, and it is hands and knees only once in the forest. If we shoot a roe, even perfectly and it gets 5 yards into the forest it is an absolute sod to find and recover them, dragging anything whilst on your hands and knees is tough, and with a bad back is a real problem. If a red stag gets 5 yards into the forest, regardless of the size, then it will involve the argo, winches and potentially hours work, after having to use the dog to find it in the first place. If a red deer was to get 100 meters into the forest, i doubt we could recover it, luckily we have never had to try.
So anything that stops them more quickly than a 243 is ideal/better. So the same deer, shot at 180 meters with the 243, same point of impact, and a larger hole, more energy may drop it on the spot, it may not, and anything that (within sensible reason) should drop them quicker is, in our situation, better.
Is the 243 enough - yes. Are there situations where something larger could be better - in my situation, yes.


Stalkers have runners with all calibers. It is all down to shot placement which ever rifle you use.
 
Stalkers have runners with all calibers. It is all down to shot placement which ever rifle you use.
yes, i know, i said that, I totally agree, in fact i gave that very example above. but i thought i had also explained that there are times when hitting them harder, with something bigger, will reduce the distance they run, minimise the risk, diminish its ability to run as far. In the situations i often stalk in reducing its ability to move even a few yards into the forest is a good thing. As of yet i have not achieved perfection, i shoot well, practice on the range regularly, am happy with my abilities and am happy that i know the correct shot placement well. To date I have never had a problem with a red getting into the forest, i had a roe make half a dozen yards once, and decided that recovering a red in a similar situation, would be a real problem for me. The roe was shot with the 243, placement was ideal, and it probably took 3-5 steps/jumps only.

So are we saying that there are no situations that anything larger than 243 is ever needed for uk deer? In my opinion the 243 is enough for all uk deer, and it will kill them well, but i do not agree that no other caliber should be considered, and that there are situations when other calibers are more efficient.
 
And I wonder how many people contributing to this thread are either using the ELD-X (the one deer legal bullet that gets close to 900 ftLbs) or indeed have the 1:8 twist rate you need to stabilise it?

I would imagine very few and then even fewer as this bullet is only available to reloaders. Then there is the twist rate/accuracy issue, assuming a standard 243 can get even an inch group at 100 yards and the shooter under hunting conditions can shoot an inch group that's potentially an 8" group at 400 yards and one lost 243 shot deer! No thanks!'
 
yes, i know, i said that, I totally agree, in fact i gave that very example above. but i thought i had also explained that there are times when hitting them harder, with something bigger, will reduce the distance they run, minimise the risk, diminish its ability to run as far. In the situations i often stalk in reducing its ability to move even a few yards into the forest is a good thing. As of yet i have not achieved perfection, i shoot well, practice on the range regularly, am happy with my abilities and am happy that i know the correct shot placement well. To date I have never had a problem with a red getting into the forest, i had a roe make half a dozen yards once, and decided that recovering a red in a similar situation, would be a real problem for me. The roe was shot with the 243, placement was ideal, and it probably took 3-5 steps/jumps only.

So are we saying that there are no situations that anything larger than 243 is ever needed for uk deer? In my opinion the 243 is enough for all uk deer, and it will kill them well, but i do not agree that no other caliber should be considered, and that there are situations when other calibers are more efficient.

I'm very happy with my 6mm up to Fallow, but when on Red or Sika I always take either the 6.5 or the 7mm. Several reasons:

1. Fallow and below I shoot in woodland/farmland and shots are seldom 200 meters whereas Red are on the hill and I will stretch to 300 meters or so and Sika are tough buggers.
2. I run Prohunters in the 6mm which are not very slippery, run out of steam relatively quickly and are hit by the wind pretty hard, all of which makes them less suitable for shots over 200 meters. I run ABLR's in the 6.5 and 7mm which carry their energy well down range and suffer significantly less wind drift.
3. Why take the risk the risk of carrying too little gun for the job when you don't have to.
 
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Utter rubbish. At 400yds the power has dropped right off. To say that it will drop them at this range every time is embarrassing tbh. At that range much bigger and more powerful calibres cannot claim to do that. I'm starting to think that you're sa2ying this just to convince yourself now dodgyknees.

Thank you, I appreciate your comment. Did I say 400m? Sorry, I meant yards. You are more than welcome to get out of your comfy armchair in Suffolk and come join me, I'll be happy to show you what the .243 Win is capable of, try to get here quick, waiting for you right here right now... see photo. That's a volcano in the background. Its nice here, the only place on the block I can get signal, read the news and see how much I've wound you up! And select my next deer at the same time!Funnily enough I'm considering shooting the fallow in the centre of the pic on the bushline, its at 379m now, yes metres, I'll wait a bit and see if he takes a little walk down the spur first... and guess what rifle I have with me today!

Anyway, wind your neck in. Shot placement and the right pill is what kills deer, energy is just a nice to have. You don't need to blow dirty great big holes in them to kill 'em. CNS, lungs, blood loss. You know what mate, it really isn't that hard.

I'm not going to suggest you're clueless or anything baguio but after 38 years using the 243 Win on medium game on 4 continents, guess what. I know what it can do, does do, and will do every time as long as I do my bit. Which I'm pretty good at.

Bought your ticket yet?

Its taken me an hour to upload the bloody photo on the crappy connection so I hope you appreciate the offer!
 
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Thank you, I appreciate your comment. Did I say 400m? Sorry, I meant yards. You are more than welcome to get out of your comfy armchair in Suffolk and come join me, I'll be happy to show you what the .243 Win is capable of, try to get here quick, waiting for you right here right now... see photo. That's a volcano in the background. Its nice here, the only place on the block I can get signal, read the news and see how much I've wound you up! And select my next deer at the same time!Funnily enough I'm considering shooting the fallow in the centre of the pic on the bushline, its at 379m now, yes metres, I'll wait a bit and see if he takes a little walk down the spur first... and guess what rifle I have with me today!

Anyway, wind your neck in. Shot placement and the right pill is what kills deer, energy is just a nice to have. You don't need to blow dirty great big holes in them to kill 'em. CNS, lungs, blood loss. You know what mate, it really isn't that hard.

I'm not going to suggest you're clueless or anything baguio but after 38 years using the 243 Win on medium game on 4 continents, guess what. I know what it can do, does do, and will do every time as long as I do my bit. Which I'm pretty good at.

Bought your ticket yet?

Its taken me an hour to upload the bloody photo on the crappy connection so I hope you appreciate the offer!

Lovely part of the world. I've been fortunate enough to visit and hunt there twice.
 
I'm very happy with my 6mm up to Fallow, but when on Red or Sika I always take either the 6.5 or the 7mm. Several reasons:

1. Fallow and below I shoot in woodland/farmland and shots are seldom 200 meters whereas Red are on the hill and I will stretch to 300 meters or so and Sika are tough buggers.
2. I run Prohunters in the 6mm which are not very slippery, run out of steam relatively quickly and are hit by the wind pretty hard, all of which makes them less suitable for shots over 200 meters. I run ABLR's in the 6.5 and 7mm which carry their energy well down range and suffer significantly less wind drift.
3. Why take the risk the risk of carrying too little gun for the job when you don't have to.

Good points Nigel. At the pub now, celebrating getting out of the block (cyclone, flood, drama) and down to the chiller to sort out the beasts from before New Year... the story can wait for another time.

Answers on a postcard...

1. No such luxury of guaranteed short ranges here. Have written up an article which will post sometime soon with photos to explain what we do here and why I have added 6.5mm to the mix to get past .243 Win range reliably.
2. I chrono’d my .243 ProHunters couple days ago to check summer speeds its actually 2800 not 2700 sorry my bad. 850-1000ft-lbs whatever at say 400yds kills a fallow or small-medium red in short order, just got to get it in the right place which is the whole point. Practice and experience.
3. Can only carry one rifle at a time! And when there”s a job of work to be done I always tend to reach for the one I’m most familair with, kicks the least and always delivers. But now though have had to devise a new rack for the quad which will allow three rifles in their cases to cover all bases. Now the 6.5 CM is caning the critters way past half a click I might just have a new best friend after all these years.........

After my effort post this arvo on the hill, rubbish signal n all, gotta laugh as the fallow spiker stood there all that time and just as I ranged him one last time, he turned and trotted of into the bush. So I turned my attentions to a BIG billy at the bottom of the valley at 358m and -23° line of sight, that’s one tough critter on a longish downhill shot.... but its business here, he eats my manuka I try and kill him... the old ProHunter slayed him good n proper... I put a lot of it down to the clever height compensation built into the rangefinders these days makes it sooo much easier.

A further comment... not wanting wind up the naysayers too much... try to understand that blokes like me, many others got to learn our skills because we knew no better and / or had no other options e.g. 22-250s only in the emerald isle for many years. Here in NZ a great many very skilled shots will shoot red deer with a .222 or 223 or .22-250 or .243 at 300-400 yards in the neck and look at you very funny if you question their ethics. That is the only thing they know and guess what they are very good at it.

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Good points Nigel. At the pub now, celebrating getting out of the block (cyclone, flood, drama) and down to the chiller to sort out the beasts from before New Year... the story can wait for another time.

Answers on a postcard...

1. No such luxury of guaranteed short ranges here. Have written up an article which will post sometime soon with photos to explain what we do here and why I have added 6.5mm to the mix to get past .243 Win range reliably.
2. I chrono’d my .243 ProHunters couple days ago to check summer speeds its actually 2800 not 2700 sorry my bad. 850-1000ft-lbs whatever at say 400yds kills a fallow or small-medium red in short order, just got to get it in the right place which is the whole point. Practice and experience.
3. Can only carry one rifle at a time! And when there”s a job of work to be done I always tend to reach for the one I’m most familair with, kicks the least and always delivers. But now though have had to devise a new rack for the quad which will allow three rifles in their cases to cover all bases. Now the 6.5 CM is caning the critters way past half a click I might just have a new best friend after all these years.........

After my effort post this arvo on the hill, rubbish signal n all, gotta laugh as the fallow spiker stood there all that time and just as I ranged him one last time, he turned and trotted of into the bush. So I turned my attentions to a BIG billy at the bottom of the valley at 358m and -23° line of sight, that’s one tough critter on a longish downhill shot.... but its business here, he eats my manuka I try and kill him... the old ProHunter slayed him good n proper... I put a lot of it down to the clever height compensation built into the rangefinders these days makes it sooo much easier.

A further comment... not wanting wind up the naysayers too much... try to understand that blokes like me, many others got to learn our skills because we knew no better and / or had no other options e.g. 22-250s only in the emerald isle for many years. Here in NZ a great many very skilled shots will shoot red deer with a .222 or 223 or .22-250 or .243 at 300-400 yards in the neck and look at you very funny if you question their ethics. That is the only thing they know and guess what they are very good at it.

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Nice work Dodgyknees. Sounds like your time in the bush since Boxing Day has been a great adventure. Looking forward to the write up.

I'm not telling anyone what they should do, I'm just saying what I do and what I have found works for me. I have worked with a number of professionals who swear by the 22-250 on the Hnds and have used one all their lives. Much like your old boys, they neck shoot everything with 50 grain BK's and have shot thousands of deer in their life times. I wouldn't argue that they are wrong but there are not many with the skills they have in getting the bullet in the right place in the heat of the moment.

Good to hear the new 6.5 is working well. Sounds as if you are stretching it's legs very well. 143 ELD-X? How have you found the terminal effects - you have probably shot more than most with it now.
 
Always an interesting topic and I think the main points have been covered already. Knowledge, skill, practice, projectile choice and shot placement all come before cartridge and calibre. I’m not up for another argument about .243 vs the rest so I’m gonna try and take the discussion in another direction.

The part of the discussion that I think is confusing matters slightly when subjectively comparing cartridge performance, is shot placement. I raised this in another thread a couple of days ago and didn’t get a bite so I shall have another go.

http://www.thedeerinitiative.co.uk/uploads/guides/161.pdf

Read the second paragraph under the heading “Chest”.

“A common reaction to a lethal chest shot is that the deer will run a short distance, then collapse, dead. A shot slightly more forwards, which involves both shoulders, is equally humane and will usually cause the animal to drop on the spot.”

So far I have not told you anything you don’t aleady know, right? But I want to focus on the second sentence. Because this is the key to why deer run, or don’t, irrespective of what cartridge / calibre you are using.

I chose a UK publication because I don’t see it discussed much there. But seek, ye shall find. I was taught centrefire deer shooting from 12 onwards by my Grandpa, in the UK. He was a staunch fellow, but not one for large calibres. He moved on the .243 in the late 50s I believe and stayed with it for the rest of his life. He shot many hundreds of game animals with his CZ .243 Win. Now he taught me, and my cousins, to select a point of aim 1” in front of the line of the foreleg at the height of the centreline of the shoulder blade. Specifically, to avoid a heart shot.

This point of aim is commonly taught in NZ. The link to the book below discusses it in detail, as does Nathan Foster in his books.

Red Deer in New Zealand : Roger Lentle : 9781869530372

This book is in every public library in the country. It is the Bible of all things red deer. The following image discusses where to shoot deer:

View attachment 89216

Now obviously I am well aware that most experienced deer shooters talk about heart / lung shots, and in the Deer Initiative pamphlet and many, many other books, we are told to shoot in line with the shoulder and just behind the vertical line of the foreleg.

But this is why can deer run away on you. Hit a deer here with a .243 or a .30-06, it will likely run, often not far but sometimes very far, because even if the heart has been stopped it can lock oxygenated blood into the brain and the animal will keep thinking “I must run” until suddenly the blood pressure drops below the point it can maintain locomotion. How far depends on a multitude of factors, the amount of andrenaline released at the time of impact being one of them. Sometimes, animals are lost due to running into thick cover, or as has been mentioned earlier in this thread, over a boundary fence (not cool). And this is of course why blokes are stuck on needing an exit wound, to track a running animal.

By selecting the forward point of aim, you are targeting the front of the lungs, where the complex of arteries and autonomic plexus nerve ganglia that connect the brain to the heart and lungs are situated. A shot here with a .222 will kill the animal, often with the dead right there “bang flop” we aspire to. You’ve all seen the videos and read the stories of the Kiwis and their Sako Vixen .222s. That is what these guys were doing with these accuate wee rifles, using traditional soft point projectiles. The front on chest shot was highly favoured, as was the side on, front line of foreleg. Another favourite is the feeding position below and facing away from the shooter on an opposing steep slope, with the head facing uphill, thus presenting a clear view of the spine between the front shoulders.



The obvious advantages of using a high-powered Magnum cartridge, or heavy for calibre .270, .308 or .3006 etc, is that the correct type of projectile will deliver a lot more energy to the POI and potentially induce hydrostatic and/or hydraulic shock. But, again in my experience, I’ve stood behind a fair few guys as they struggle for accuracy with hard kicking lightweight hunting rifles. So they default back to the shot placement that they believe will give them the highest probability of a kill, and aim for the area behind the shoulder... and curse and swear as they get a runner disappearing into the forest despite the fact that they’ve hit it with a tank shell.

Next it’s my turn with my poxy .243 Win, and at 300m the animal jumps with an arched back, staggers a few paces, drops at the rear, then falls over dead, the neck curving back tight against the shoulders. A sure sign you’ve disrupted the nerve plexus - when you dress it out, conveniently in the same place you shot it, you’ll find the front of the lungs destroyed and the main arterial connections to the heart have bled out very fast, the chest cavity will be swimming in blood.

So back to the issue of whether 6mm, most commonly in the form of .243 Win, is enough gun for deer. My view, clearly, is that yes it is. My view, in the manner I was taught, is that shot placement has confused a lot of guys into thinking that they don’t have a big enough cartridge. I am frequently amazed by some of the things I read, here and elsewhere. Some of the debates we have about calibre and cartridge are well meant, and quite funny, but the underlying message to me at least is that quite a lot of guys don’t truly understand why their deer run so far. It’s not surprising really because just about every manual you’ll read will tell you: shoot them on the animal’s midline behind the shoulder. Watch it for yourself on YouTube there are hundreds of videos of precisely this, you can see the bullet strike, and .....the deer take off like a Paveway missle. The only scenario I regard heavy bullets as a prequisite is true long range hunting, for their ballistic performance.

So to conclude... yes the .243 Win is “adequate” on medium game. Of course it is. If, however, you prefer to use a heavier bullet in a cartridge that delivers more energy, then go for it. Use whatever you enjoy shooting, and what you can demonstrate you are capable of delivering prerequsite accuracy with. If you want to buy a .30cal because you believe it is going to stop your deer from running, think again.

(A closing comment would be that at the ranges most of the UK high seat shooting is conducted at, and probably most of the offhand or stick or bag based shooting in fields, a well practised shooter should be able to drop any deer species on the spot with a .224 were they legal in England, but certainly with a .243. I don’t want to stir you up but with all the naval gazing about sub MOA accuracy at 100 or 200yds, only to then read in the next thread that someone does not believe a 95gr 6mm hunting pill is enough for roe at 150 yds, well it just doesn’t make sense. Most of the deer shooting in the UK - some Scottish hill shooting aside - is at short range, sub 300yds. That is precisely what the .243Win was designed for. Shooting out of a high seat at 100yds and fretting that you don’t have enough gun suggests something else might require fine tuning before you buy a bazooka.)


Hi Dodgyknees,

I have been trying to find a copy of this book but can’t find one anywhere.
Do you know of a place that would send a copy to the UK?

If so I don’t suppose you could pm me the details.

Thanks in anticipation.
 
Hi Dodgyknees - if Baguio doesn't want to take up your offer, can I take his place?

I'll start saving for my ticket now - and I'll bring my .243! :D
 
Hi Dodgyknees,

I have been trying to find a copy of this book but can’t find one anywhere.
Do you know of a place that would send a copy to the UK?

If so I don’t suppose you could pm me the details.

Thanks in anticipation.

Nevermind, I have located one now.

i am looking foreword to reading that when it arrives.
 
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I previously replied to this thread and appreciate the comments. I have had nothing but success with my .243 win. for deer. I will admit if I am thinking the shots could get past 300 yards I switch to a 270Win.To me the .270win is about the perfect deer caliber. For energy at distance, pass through performance, blood trails, and dropping them where they stand its about perfect. I'm thinking the bullet selection is less critical. At any rate a well placed shot from either will likely bring home the meat.
 
Just to poke a stick in the hornet’s nest… here’s a couple of pics of a typical red hind meets .243 Winchester, in this case from 237m on a dead still damp summer’s evening. When you don’t want them to run at all for recovery reasons, all the effort that goes into creating a bankable ½MOA carry rifle pays you back a hundredfold when you trust yourself to put the pill in the right spot.

Note how the animal’s neck is completely broken – when I took the head off I didn’t even need to separate the vertebrae, the ProHunter had done that for me. Large, sharp shards of bone, one of which got me a good ‘un and was a bit ugly…

As the range increases then the point of aim moves into the chest just in front of the line of the foreleg, for the autonomous plexus and lungs. The CNS is not hard to find with an accurate rifle and lots of practice shooting prone in the field. This trip has been different as 90% of the time I’ve been on my own which I’ve really enjoyed but it’s quite a challenge handling these beasts on the hill with just the one pair of hands when you want to get them back to the chiller. So I’ve neck shot almost all the deer bar three that weren’t quite right, so it was front of the chest for them. When time is short, or when I'm in close cover and offhand shooting with the .308 Win, that's when the shoulder bones / H&L shot is best for me.

Reliable bullet placement and proven bullet construction trumps the thump every time. That’s the irrefutable truth! Arguing the point about the .243 Win relentlessly is fun but I do wonder if the naysayers are saying nay based on experience, or whether it’s based purely on books and spreadsheets or what? And if it is based on experience, what were those experiences? Hurried shots, poor placement and/or wrong bullets make the biggest mistakes, that’s my learning over the years… doesn’t matter what you’re using.

When I'm bored I loose myself in the numbers sometimes, comparing this cartridge to that one, fiddling with assumptions over and over, I enjoy it! But then I get out into the field for a few weeks and I forget about all that and suck in the fresh air and just take my time… Getting my bloody breath back after the climb helps too, jeez I'm not getting any younger and I've struggled in this infernal summer humidity. But it doesn’t seem to matter which cartridge I use, be it on a deer or a goat or a fat pig, they all fall over. Common sense and practice, knowing your limits and that of your rifle, and a calm unhurried approach to the game, this counts for everything. And I think that's true for the vast majority of blokes lucky enough to get out often and practice in field conditions, especially if you have a variety of rifles. All our waffle about what's right and what's not is meaningless. Skills and experience and the situation at hand, that should tell you if you've got enough gun. If you are feeling doubtful - about anything - don't take the shot. There's no substitute for regular practice in field conditions.


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I've bought my ticket!

We arrive early July in Auckland & leave from Christchurch on the 12th of August.

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Thank you, I appreciate your comment. Did I say 400m? Sorry, I meant yards. You are more than welcome to get out of your comfy armchair in Suffolk and come join me, I'll be happy to show you what the .243 Win is capable of, try to get here quick, waiting for you right here right now... see photo. That's a volcano in the background. Its nice here, the only place on the block I can get signal, read the news and see how much I've wound you up! And select my next deer at the same time!Funnily enough I'm considering shooting the fallow in the centre of the pic on the bushline, its at 379m now, yes metres, I'll wait a bit and see if he takes a little walk down the spur first... and guess what rifle I have with me today!

Anyway, wind your neck in. Shot placement and the right pill is what kills deer, energy is just a nice to have. You don't need to blow dirty great big holes in them to kill 'em. CNS, lungs, blood loss. You know what mate, it really isn't that hard.

I'm not going to suggest you're clueless or anything baguio but after 38 years using the 243 Win on medium game on 4 continents, guess what. I know what it can do, does do, and will do every time as long as I do my bit. Which I'm pretty good at.

Bought your ticket yet?

Its taken me an hour to upload the bloody photo on the crappy connection so I hope you appreciate the offer!
 
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