That old thread 'is a .243 enough?'

tonyt

Well-Known Member
Thought i would share my observations having now taken 3 of my 4 fallow bucks over the last two seasons all with 243 100gn (other with a 308)
Fallow buck all sept/oct and larder weight 70kg 66kg and now 58kg.
All three h&l shot, ran / walked on 50m max, last one jumped and then walked 15m and dropped. Therefore 243 is enough - in all three cases i found the bullet outside ribcage and inside skin whilst butchering. That is, bullet had exactly the right amount of energy to do the job on a large rutty fallow as no energy left BUT:
I think I would prefer a bit more energy so that i get an exit wound and an easier trail to follow. In that respect I have been lucky as buck was easy to find but wont always be lucky and prefer not ro stretch luck too far.

By comparison,numerous (35kg max) prickets and all does shot all give an exit wound with the 243. 308 gave an exit wound with a 65kg buck
 
For the last roe that I shot I was using Hornady American Whitetail 150gr through my .308. The range was about 90 metres.

I shot through the ribs/heart, and the bullet was partially fragmented inside the carcass, with only a small exit wound. The roe dropped immediately.
 
Many people stalk their whole lives with a 243 and are totally happy with it. I admit I have never used a 243, started with a 270 and still use either that or a 7x57.
I really, really want an exit wound and that is the precise reason I have never moved to a 243 even though their are undoubtedly benefits in noise, recoil and hence perhaps weight.
I am sure the 243 is ideal for smaller deer but for much of the year, I don't know what I am going to stalk next, from munty to Red stag.
In conclusion, being over-gunned is never a problem IMHO, being under-gunned can be.
 
I started out stalking wanting the bullet to perform as the original op, but this works till you do eventually get a runner and can be difficult to locate not a problem with a dog but not everyone can have one, I then went to having a good exit with as much claret on the ground as possible, this works well I am not saying that the 243 won't do this at all, I think it comes to preference with calibres and everyone has their own favourite, ask 50 people you will probably get 50 different answers, atb wayne
 
when I used a .243 100 pro hunters from rabbits to fallow all fell to the shot are as good as ,so yes it will drop all in the uk but placement is key as with any bullet or cal
 
tonyt,try some nosler partition bullets in the 243,expensive yes but will give an exit every time even on shoulder shots,brilliant bullet in 243.i use 100 gr partition in tikka t3.
 
With 243 heart shot I think buillet head expansion and penetration is more important than for a heavier 308 round.

A 308 obviously has greater margin for error

The 308 is obviously the better long range calibre retaining more energy at range but the 243 is perfectly adequate at the ranges we normaly shoot down south

The 100g Federal Power Shock I used gave me through and through hits with 243 which I was satisfied with

The 308s greater margin of erro makes it the better choice but ironicly some FAOs don't like novice stalkers using 308. I was told I could have 243 but not a 308 when I first started

This seem counterintuitive to me as the 243 demands greater accuracy from the shooter.

If you can hit what your aiming at and aim in the right spot a 243 will put anuthing in the UK flat on the floor

As I have said many times I don't like 308 for head shot at the buillet expansion is not optimal for off target shots. The carnage from a 3600fps 70g BT Varment round is ideal for head shots. The 308BTs make a neet hole which is far less than ideal.

For heart shots the soft point 308 does a better job for through and through shots and a good blood trail

If I couldnt have both id probably opt for the 308 but I can so I pick and chose the preferred rifel for the job at hand.
 
Bullet choice in any calibre is key. After a lot of trial and error I've found the 85grain Sierra game king to be the best in 243. Fast and accurate, penetrates deeply (usually straight through) and yet expands nicely. More deer have dropped on the spot with this than anything from my 308.
 
40 years ago i was told .243 was not suitable for big fallow. Strange that all the big fallow i shot with the .243 died. On another thread our NZ contributors seem to shoot large red stags with .243 at good distances. I doubt the UK's red stags are harder to kill than those in NZ.
 
There is one big difference between the USA/NZ and our shooting conditions. Our permissions can be very small and if a deer runs only 50yds because an inferior cartridge/bullet combination it could be over the fence. Often a deer cannot be retrieved from a neighbours land. The worst combination I ever saw was the 6.5x55, 22" barrel and 156 lapua mega bullet. Even good heart lung shot Sika ran well over 100yds. The owner of the rifle had many "misses", quiet a few lost deer.
I have shot plenty deer with 243 and 308. Overall I think the 308 kills quicker. I don't think the 243 is the worst but especially at longer ranges I prefer the 308.
Bullet, cartridge and shot placement should match. Often we can't do much about shot placement, especially after the shot.... but we can do something about the cartridge and bullet we use.
edi
 
As long as its within the parameters of the law, shot placement, bullet design and speed are more important than bullet diameter or the case that the bullet is fired from
 
"Enough".

enough for what? For the 6 UK species at distances you are likely to be stalking into to take the shot, Id say so. If not, then perhaps more time practising on paper required. Is there less margin for error than other calibres? Possibly, and at range particularly, but thats not the question.
 
Always an interesting topic and I think the main points have been covered already. Knowledge, skill, practice, projectile choice and shot placement all come before cartridge and calibre. I’m not up for another argument about .243 vs the rest so I’m gonna try and take the discussion in another direction.

The part of the discussion that I think is confusing matters slightly when subjectively comparing cartridge performance, is shot placement. I raised this in another thread a couple of days ago and didn’t get a bite so I shall have another go.

http://www.thedeerinitiative.co.uk/uploads/guides/161.pdf

Read the second paragraph under the heading “Chest”.

“A common reaction to a lethal chest shot is that the deer will run a short distance, then collapse, dead. A shot slightly more forwards, which involves both shoulders, is equally humane and will usually cause the animal to drop on the spot.”

So far I have not told you anything you don’t aleady know, right? But I want to focus on the second sentence. Because this is the key to why deer run, or don’t, irrespective of what cartridge / calibre you are using.

I chose a UK publication because I don’t see it discussed much there. But seek, ye shall find. I was taught centrefire deer shooting from 12 onwards by my Grandpa, in the UK. He was a staunch fellow, but not one for large calibres. He moved on the .243 in the late 50s I believe and stayed with it for the rest of his life. He shot many hundreds of game animals with his CZ .243 Win. Now he taught me, and my cousins, to select a point of aim 1” in front of the line of the foreleg at the height of the centreline of the shoulder blade. Specifically, to avoid a heart shot.

This point of aim is commonly taught in NZ. The link to the book below discusses it in detail, as does Nathan Foster in his books.

Red Deer in New Zealand : Roger Lentle : 9781869530372

This book is in every public library in the country. It is the Bible of all things red deer. The following image discusses where to shoot deer:

image.webp

Now obviously I am well aware that most experienced deer shooters talk about heart / lung shots, and in the Deer Initiative pamphlet and many, many other books, we are told to shoot in line with the shoulder and just behind the vertical line of the foreleg.

But this is why can deer run away on you. Hit a deer here with a .243 or a .30-06, it will likely run, often not far but sometimes very far, because even if the heart has been stopped it can lock oxygenated blood into the brain and the animal will keep thinking “I must run” until suddenly the blood pressure drops below the point it can maintain locomotion. How far depends on a multitude of factors, the amount of andrenaline released at the time of impact being one of them. Sometimes, animals are lost due to running into thick cover, or as has been mentioned earlier in this thread, over a boundary fence (not cool). And this is of course why blokes are stuck on needing an exit wound, to track a running animal.

By selecting the forward point of aim, you are targeting the front of the lungs, where the complex of arteries and autonomic plexus nerve ganglia that connect the brain to the heart and lungs are situated. A shot here with a .222 will kill the animal, often with the dead right there “bang flop” we aspire to. You’ve all seen the videos and read the stories of the Kiwis and their Sako Vixen .222s. That is what these guys were doing with these accuate wee rifles, using traditional soft point projectiles. The front on chest shot was highly favoured, as was the side on, front line of foreleg. Another favourite is the feeding position below and facing away from the shooter on an opposing steep slope, with the head facing uphill, thus presenting a clear view of the spine between the front shoulders.



The obvious advantages of using a high-powered Magnum cartridge, or heavy for calibre .270, .308 or .3006 etc, is that the correct type of projectile will deliver a lot more energy to the POI and potentially induce hydrostatic and/or hydraulic shock. But, again in my experience, I’ve stood behind a fair few guys as they struggle for accuracy with hard kicking lightweight hunting rifles. So they default back to the shot placement that they believe will give them the highest probability of a kill, and aim for the area behind the shoulder... and curse and swear as they get a runner disappearing into the forest despite the fact that they’ve hit it with a tank shell.

Next it’s my turn with my poxy .243 Win, and at 300m the animal jumps with an arched back, staggers a few paces, drops at the rear, then falls over dead, the neck curving back tight against the shoulders. A sure sign you’ve disrupted the nerve plexus - when you dress it out, conveniently in the same place you shot it, you’ll find the front of the lungs destroyed and the main arterial connections to the heart have bled out very fast, the chest cavity will be swimming in blood.

So back to the issue of whether 6mm, most commonly in the form of .243 Win, is enough gun for deer. My view, clearly, is that yes it is. My view, in the manner I was taught, is that shot placement has confused a lot of guys into thinking that they don’t have a big enough cartridge. I am frequently amazed by some of the things I read, here and elsewhere. Some of the debates we have about calibre and cartridge are well meant, and quite funny, but the underlying message to me at least is that quite a lot of guys don’t truly understand why their deer run so far. It’s not surprising really because just about every manual you’ll read will tell you: shoot them on the animal’s midline behind the shoulder. Watch it for yourself on YouTube there are hundreds of videos of precisely this, you can see the bullet strike, and .....the deer take off like a Paveway missle. The only scenario I regard heavy bullets as a prequisite is true long range hunting, for their ballistic performance.

So to conclude... yes the .243 Win is “adequate” on medium game. Of course it is. If, however, you prefer to use a heavier bullet in a cartridge that delivers more energy, then go for it. Use whatever you enjoy shooting, and what you can demonstrate you are capable of delivering prerequsite accuracy with. If you want to buy a .30cal because you believe it is going to stop your deer from running, think again.

(A closing comment would be that at the ranges most of the UK high seat shooting is conducted at, and probably most of the offhand or stick or bag based shooting in fields, a well practised shooter should be able to drop any deer species on the spot with a .224 were they legal in England, but certainly with a .243. I don’t want to stir you up but with all the naval gazing about sub MOA accuracy at 100 or 200yds, only to then read in the next thread that someone does not believe a 95gr 6mm hunting pill is enough for roe at 150 yds, well it just doesn’t make sense. Most of the deer shooting in the UK - some Scottish hill shooting aside - is at short range, sub 300yds. That is precisely what the .243Win was designed for. Shooting out of a high seat at 100yds and fretting that you don’t have enough gun suggests something else might require fine tuning before you buy a bazooka.)
 
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Always an interesting topic and I think the main points have been covered already. Knowledge, skill, practice, projectile choice and shot placement all come before cartridge and calibre. I’m not up for another argument about .243 vs the rest so I’m gonna try and take the discussion in another direction.

The part of the discussion that I think is confusing matters slightly when subjectively comparing cartridge performance, is shot placement. I raised this in another thread a couple of days ago and didn’t get a bite so I shall have another go.

http://www.thedeerinitiative.co.uk/uploads/guides/161.pdf

Read the second paragraph under the heading “Chest”.

“A common reaction to a lethal chest shot is that the deer will run a short distance, then collapse, dead. A shot slightly more forwards, which involves both shoulders, is equally humane and will usually case the animal to drop on the spot.”

So far I have not told you anything you don’t aleady know, right? But I want to focus on the second sentence. Because this is the key to why deer run, or don’t, irrespective of what cartridge / calibre you are using.

I chose a UK publication because I don’t see it discussed much there. But seek, ye shall find. I was taught centrefire deer shooting from 12 onwards by my Grandpa, in the UK. He was a staunch fellow, but not one for large calibres. He moved on the .243 in the late 50s I believe and stayed with it for the rest of his life. He shot many hundreds of game animals with his CZ .243 Win. Now he taught me, and my cousins, to select a point of aim 1” in front of the line of the foreleg at the height of the centreline of the shoulder blade. Specifically, to avoid a heart shot.

This point of aim is commonly taught in NZ. The link to the book below discusses it in detail, as does Nathan Foster in his books.

Red Deer in New Zealand : Roger Lentle : 9781869530372

This book is in every public library in the country. It is the Bible of all things red deer. The following image discusses where to shoot deer:

View attachment 89216

Now obviously I am well aware that most experienced deer shooters talk about heart / lung shots, and in the Deer Initiative pamphlet and many, many other books, we are told to shoot in line with the shoulder and just behind the vertical line of the foreleg.

But this is why can deer run away on you. Hit a deer here with a .243 or a .30-06, it will likely run, often not far but sometimes very far, because even if the heart has been stopped it can lock oxygenated blood into the brain and the animal will keep thinking “I must run” until suddenly the blood pressure drops below the point it can maintain locomotion. How far depends on a multitude of factors, the amount of andrenaline released at the time of impact being one of them. Sometimes, animals are lost due to running into thick cover, or as has been mentioned earlier in this thread, over a boundary fence (not cool). And this is of course why blokes are stuck on needing an exit wound, to track a running animal.

By selecting the forward point of aim, you are targeting the front of the lungs, where the complex of arteries and autonomic plexus nerve ganglia that connect the brain to the heart and lungs are situated. A shot here with a .222 will kill the animal, often with the dead right there “bang flop” we aspire to. You’ve all seen the videos and read the stories of the Kiwis and their Sako Vixen .222s. That is what these guys were doing with these accuate wee rifles, using traditional soft point projectiles. The front on chest shot was highly favoured, as was the side on, front line of foreleg. Another favourite is the feeding position below and facing away from the shooter on an opposing steep slope, with the head facing uphill, thus presenting a clear view of the spine between the front shoulders.



The obvious advantages of using a high-powered Magnum cartridge, or heavy for calibre .270, .308 or .3006 etc, is that the correct type of projectile will deliver a lot more energy to the POI and potentially induce hydrostatic hydraulic shock. But, again in my experience, I’ve stood behind a fair few guys as they struggle for accuracy with hard kicking lightweight hunting rifles. So they default back to the shot placement that they believe will give them the highest probability of a kill, and aim for the area behind the shoulder... and curse and swear as they get a runner disappearing into the forest despite the fact that they’ve hit it with a tank shell.

Next it’s my turn with my poxy .243 Win, and at 300m the animal jumps with an arched back, staggers a few paces, drops at the rear, then falls over dead, the neck curving back tight against the shoulders. A sure sign you’ve disrupted the nerve plexus - when you dress it out, conveniently in the same place you shot it, you’ll find the front of the lungs destroyed and the main arterial connections to the heart have bled out very fast, the chest cavity will be swimming in blood.

So back to the issue of whether 6mm, most commonly in the form of .243 Win, is enough gun for deer. My view, clearly, is that yes it is. My view, in the manner I was taught, is that shot placement has confused a lot of guys into thinking that they don’t have a big enough cartridge. I am frequently amazed by some of the things I read, here and elsewhere, some of the debates we have about calibre and cartridge are well meant, and quite funny, but the underlying message to me at least is that quite a lot of guys don’t truly understand why their deer run so far. It’s not surprising really because just about every manual you’ll read will tell you: shoot them on the animal’s midline behind the shoulder. Watch it for yourself on YouTube there are hundreds of videos of precisely this, you can see the bullet strike, and .....the deer take off like a Paveway missle. The only scenario I regard heavy bullets as a prequisite is true long range hunting, for their ballistic performance.

So to conclude... yes the .243 Win is “adequate” on medium game. Of course it is. If, however, you prefer to use a heavier bullet in a cartridge that delivers more energy, then go for it. Use whatever you enjoy shooting, and what you can demonstrate you are capable of delivering prerequsite accuracy with. If you want to buy a .30cal because you believe it is going to stop your deer from running, think again.

(A closing comment would be that at the ranges most of the UK high seat shooting is conducted at, and probably most of the offhand or stick or bag based shooting in fields, a well practised shooter should be able to drop any deer species on the spot with a .224 were they legal in England, but certainly with a .243. I don’t want to stir you up but with all the naval gazing about sub MOA accuracy at 100 or 200yds, only to then read in the next thread that someone does not believe a 95gr 6mm hunting pill is enough for roe at 150 yds, well it just doesn’t make sense. Most of the deer shooting in the UK - some Scottish hill shooting aside - is at short range, sub 300yds. That is precisely what the .243Win was designed for. Shooting out of a high seat at 100yds and fretting that you don’t have enough gun suggests something else might require fine tuning before you buy a bazooka.)


You are talking an awful lot of sense here, and it usually the shot I take. Two things I would add. 1) some 243 bullets are quite soft/ or designed for rapid expansion or vermin and the pretty high velocities can mean the shoulder is not penetrated. I have experienced this. 2) a lot of hunters and game dealers don't like shoulders damaged. The neck is a small target so the behind shoulder shot minimises meat damage and is a large target.

The beauty of the shoulder shot is that if the deer moves as it is shot, then Bullets will be through lungs. I went for a lung shot a few weeks ago and deer stepped forward as shot went off and bullet went through liver and guts and the deer was never recovered.
 
You are talking an awful lot of sense here, and it usually the shot I take. Two things I would add. 1) some 243 bullets are quite soft/ or designed for rapid expansion or vermin and the pretty high velocities can mean the shoulder is not penetrated. I have experienced this. 2) a lot of hunters and game dealers don't like shoulders damaged. The neck is a small target so the behind shoulder shot minimises meat damage and is a large target.

Interesting points, but I would say (a) yes, I understand a lot of guys will want the 'meatsaver' option, up to them, I don't eat the forequarters, that's dog tucker; (b) I'm not suggesting a neck shot, that's quite different (though very effective), see diagram above; (c) the "hilar" zone is not a small target, especially taken in the context of the MOA accuracy we strive for. And most importantly of all - as you say - correct projectile selection. Don't use a varmint pill! There are lots of good 6mm hunting pills, 85gr - 100gr.
 
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Ive got no doubt that a correctly chosen .243 bullet weight, placed in the correct spot will happily drop anything in the UK (interesting post from dodgy knees about forward-of-shoulder placement btw) the 243 is a great calibre and I enjoy using mine. However, the fact is that some 243 rifles, mine included, will not perform accurately with all 100gn bullets. Mine for example will not give a good group with 100gn sierra BTSP, 95gn nosler partitions or BT's, drive an 85gn Sierra BTHP or 87gn vmax and its touching holes. Depending on velocity that the 85gn are being driven (2950 with 37gn of varget in mine) you are marginal (1643ftlbs) legally for roe and above in england and wales, let alone the suitability of bullet performance.
Out of interest, in a previous post, Dodgyknees mentioned that he had success with 100gn flat base bullets, so I will be trying these at some point. In the meantime Im very happy with the performance of my 30-06 (165gn sierra BTSP's driven slow) on roe.
 
Dodgyknees you should know by now that you can't discuss a 243 on here using common sense and logic. All arguments must be based on "manliness" and emotion. It gets tricky when you need to decide if you think "manliness" is defined by using a "small calibre" effectively or having to use the biggest and most powerful you're allowed, this is probably a discussion for another thread though!
 
dodgyknees,
That is excellent!
I still prefere to hit behind the shoulder, but, if i can, miss the heart so it can carry on pumping and the BP quickly drops. This also helps get a good blood trail if through and through.
Regards,Ken.
 
At the end of the day a 22LR will put all our deer down, the only reason why we do not use them (and why we are not allowed to use them) is because we cannot guarantee perfect shot placement all the time. We in Ireland are allowed to use 22-250 for red deer with a 55gr bullet. Most hunters have learnt that it will put the red deer down but it can also go horribly wrong.
If one talks about a cartridge to shoot deer with, we talk about a variety of shot placements and of course also bad shots. At least a slightly larger hole in the wrong spot might slow the animal down more than a smaller hole which might lead to a quicker second shot or less suffering. Overall I believe a 308 or 30-06 or 270 will put deer down quicker and more reliable than a 243.
edi
 
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