The end of lead = the end of 22LR?

[Dunwaters]

So surely Copper should be classed as "Less Toxic" rather than "Non Toxic"...

Maybe, in sufficient quantities anything is toxic.
Maybe a better question might be “ why is the UK alone pursuing this course at this time?”

 

[old 30-06]

The dictionary definition of "toxic" is anything that poisons. If you were shot with an icicle or a feather it would meet the definition. Put a lump of lead on the roof of your house and it will not kill anything, it will just sit there and do nothing. 100 years later and the situation is still the same. I appreciate that a lead bullet will kill, but so will a copper, bismuth or steel bullet, so they are "toxic" by definition. I do agree with your question "why is the UK alone pursuing this course at this time". Are we leaders or simply being lead?

 

[Hook'N'Bullet]

The dictionary definition of "toxic" is anything that poisons. If you were shot with an icicle or a feather it would meet the definition. Put a lump of lead on the roof of your house and it will not kill anything, it will just sit there and do nothing. 100 years later and the situation is still the same. I appreciate that a lead bullet will kill, but so will a copper, bismuth or steel bullet, so they are "toxic" by definition. I do agree with your question "why is the UK alone pursuing this course at this time". Are we leaders or simply being lead?

I see what you did there

 

[landowner]

ferrets ! Airguns ! traps! Gas ! When i was a mad keen ferreting lad i found stables very easy to obtain ferreting permissions on ( even on a few vegan owners ground ) . Long term i am quite confident there will be alternatives produced as there is a lot of money spent on 22 RF ammo ( it might involve new barrel or new rifle to get the best performing), as twist rates and bullets will change as the ammo evolves . I do think the lead ban as regards 22 RF is a bit crackers and many nations who have been lead free a while now have dodged it .
Lets not go breaking the laws when the ban comes in though because there will be a big backlash fix on its way if we do that will certainly leave us all in a far worse situation .

Sadly, I don't think the government cares about the money spent on 22 LR ammo. I doubt they even understand or care that the lead ban will make 22 LR extinct in the UK. There are no viable alternatives and I see no sign of this changing.

Physics and economics combine in a way that means there is no future for 22 LR without lead. Folks with 22 LR rifles will own a worthless museum piece without lead ammo.

 

[old 30-06]

Just like my AYA Yoeman 12 bore side by side non ejector with a full choke left barrel. Do you think the Government will operate a buy-back scheme ?

 

[Heym SR20]

Given the number who use 22lr and quantity of ammo used, I would suggest that before long there will alternative ammo that works well.

There are already the likes of Norma Eco which works well in some rifles. In my old Brno, not as accurately as RWS hollow point ammo, but inside 50 yards it is accurate enough on rabbits.

But both big and small companies are working on alternatives. Cutting Edge Technologies have developed a 32gn copper bullet that works.

Here in the UK Horton & Sons in Birmingham have patented a new material, “Hortonium” that claims to have similar properties to lead and they are now developing lots of different ammunition alternatives.

How these get into mainstream volume production will very much depend on who they commercialise.

It will require investment etc, and usual route for new technologies reaching mass market is for a major player to acquire the technology. But in many cases it may be better to pursue your own path.

 

[Dunwaters]

Just like my AYA Yoeman 12 bore side by side non ejector with a full choke left barrel. Do you think the Government will operate a buy-back scheme ?

Why not just have it opened out to 1/2 ?

 

[old 30-06]

That would solve the choke problem but it would cost much more than the gun is worth.

 

[GunQuarter]

Given the number who use 22lr and quantity of ammo used, I would suggest that before long there will alternative ammo that works well.

There are already the likes of Norma Eco which works well in some rifles. In my old Brno, not as accurately as RWS hollow point ammo, but inside 50 yards it is accurate enough on rabbits.

But both big and small companies are working on alternatives. Cutting Edge Technologies have developed a 32gn copper bullet that works.

Here in the UK Horton & Sons in Birmingham have patented a new material, “Hortonium” that claims to have similar properties to lead and they are now developing lots of different ammunition alternatives.

How these get into mainstream volume production will very much depend on who they commercialise.

It will require investment etc, and usual route for new technologies reaching mass market is for a major player to acquire the technology. But in many cases it may be better to pursue your own path.

We are nearing the closure of the first deal with many more to go. We are not greedy, so looking to get it out to as many manufacturers as possible. Making it so easy for them to take it and run with it, almost a no brainer. To make it work it needs lots of people making it but working collaboratively on the procurement of the raw material to get economies of scale and get it into the market at the best possible price.

 

[GunQuarter]

That would solve the choke problem but it would cost much more than the gun is worth.

Hortonium works at full choke

 

[Millerich]

Hortonium works at full choke

Does that mean a .410 cartridge that can be used in a Hushpower will be available i.e. fibre wad? Some had suggested the withdrawal of lead would leave the fully choked Hushpower obsolete.

 

[GunQuarter]

Does that mean a .410 cartridge that can be used in a Hushpower will be available i.e. fibre wad? Some had suggested the withdrawal of lead would leave the fully choked Hushpower obsolete.

yes that is correct it works in 410 full choke

 

[Millerich]

yes that is correct it works in 410 full choke

Many thanks.

 

[Bowland blades]

Sadly, I don't think the government cares about the money spent on 22 LR ammo. I doubt they even understand or care that the lead ban will make 22 LR extinct in the UK. There are no viable alternatives and I see no sign of this changing.

Physics and economics combine in a way that means there is no future for 22 LR without lead. Folks with 22 LR rifles will own a worthless museum piece without lead ammo.

The Governments actually care about very little other than power . The person who invents 22 LR ammo to match current RF rifles at the reasonable cost in line with current ammo will make Millions though . Indeed if we could have something better than lead as regards accuracy, meeting the needs of serious target shooters and quarry shooters with a strong patent maybe more like billions through succession. Is it possible ? Well who really knows but RF is used and made in very big numbers and like it or not the world is going lead free everything .

 

[GunQuarter]

Sadly, I don't think the government cares about the money spent on 22 LR ammo. I doubt they even understand or care that the lead ban will make 22 LR extinct in the UK. There are no viable alternatives and I see no sign of this changing.

Physics and economics combine in a way that means there is no future for 22 LR without lead. Folks with 22 LR rifles will own a worthless museum piece without lead ammo.

We've prototyped 22 in various formats. Solid, jacketed and even a jacketed bullet with another version of Hortonium acting as a jacket.

In solid format we copied the tenex shape but made it 10% longer to account for the density difference.

I'm not a rifle shot at all but at 50 metres I grouped both tenex and ours very similar. All hit the target.

We have prototyped and it worked, could it improve again? Yes absolutely with good test facilities and production quality manufacturing. Oh btw iwe extruded it into wire in another test. Most bullets are made from wire and then pressed. We've also done hot mold too.

So all is not lost. We aren't greedy and don't particularly want one business to win over another, we'd rather license to many to make it really easy/affordable for them to take it on.

Then we all win including you as shooters.

 

[GunQuarter]

The Governments actually care about very little other than power . The person who invents 22 LR ammo to match current RF rifles at the reasonable cost in line with current ammo will make Millions though . Indeed if we could have something better than lead as regards accuracy, meeting the needs of serious target shooters and quarry shooters with a strong patent maybe more like billions through succession. Is it possible ? Well who really knows but RF is used and made in very big numbers and like it or not the world is going lead free everything

 

[old 30-06]

Well, GunQuarter, you got me! Despite of my Batchelor of Science Degree I had never heard of "Hortonium". There is not much info on it on the internet, so could you possibly enlighten me on its properties? But........being rare and , how much will it work out for a box of 25 ?

 

[markj1]

There’s the problem, 1700fps!!!!
For a lot of folk the quiet subsonic round is the reason for picking the 22lr out of the cabinet for vermin control.

True, but Subsonic .22LR is generally more expensive anyway.

I think that, as others have said, cost will be as important a factor here as performance, if not more.

Those who engage in hunting and vermin shooting etc might be OK with the cost increase due to relatively small amount of ammunition consumed, but as a 'plinker' myself (not to be confused with plonker! ) I could easily get through several hundred .22LR rounds on a sunny Saturday morning.

 

[Smellydog]

Pinch of bismuth, a pinch of osmium, some gallium and antimony. ??

 

[GunQuarter]

expand...We've prototyped 22 in various formats. Solid, jacketed and even a jacketed bullet with another version of Hortonium acting as a jacket.

In solid format we copied the tenex shape but made it 10% longer to account for the density difference.

I'm not a rifle shot at all but at 50 metres I grouped both tenex and ours very similar. All hit the target.

We have prototyped and it worked, could it improve again? Yes absolutely with good test facilities and production quality manufacturing. Oh btw iwe extruded it into wire in another test. Most bullets are made from wire and then pressed. We've also done hot mold too.

So all is not lost. We aren't greedy and don't particularly want one business to win over another, we'd rather license to many to make it really easy/affordable for them to take it on.

Then we all win including you as shooters.

Well, GunQuarter, you got me! Despite of my Batchelor of Science Degree I had never heard of "Hortonium". There is not much info on it on the internet, so could you possibly enlighten me on its properties? But........being rare and , how much will it work out for a box of 25 ?

It is a blend of several elements that we have created ourselves. With the help of a retired Metallurgist with 50 years experience in mining industry all over the world.

Patent is pending for its application for ammunition and also fishing. Therefore we can not disclose yet what is in it.

We are in process of talking to several manufacturers to license it and bring it to market. So no idea on the price. It will be more than lead due to simple economics (lead is only £2k a ton, everything else is at least 5 X more expensive). We can bake a cake but can't control ingredient pricing.