The future is electric

Eh, no
There is a hydrogen fuelling station in Aberdeen not far from where I live and a hydrogen fuelling station is nothing like a fuelling station for petrol and diesel
Have a look at this
Note the size and complexity of the hydrogen production and storage part of the set up
The station can produce 5Kg of hydrogen per hour or 130Kg per day
Cars are refuelled at a pressure of 700 BAR (over 10000 psi) and busses and trucks are refuelled at 350 BAR (over 5000psi)
There is only 50 Kg of 700 BAR storage and 100Kg of 350 BAR storage
A hydrogen fuel celled powered Toyota Mirai has a hydrogen capacity of 5.5 Kg, so simple maths says that if 10 Toyota Mirais came in for hydrogen one after another, only the first 9 would get fuel and the last one would have to wait for an hour while the system produced another 5 Kg of fuel
The bottom line is that for cars and light commercial vehicles, hydrogen is a non starter.
However, for large commercial vehicles it may be a solution since the size and weight of the battery pack needed to give a large commercial vehicle a usable range would adversely affect the amount of load it could carry.
Such a vehicle could potentially have a large , but comparatively lightweight hydrogen fuel tank that would give it decent range and still allow it carry a commercially viable weight of cargo.

Cheers

Bruce



There is an alternative to hydrogen too, that uses existing technology. Not as green as EVs but it also makes use of the embedded carbon already in vehicles.

 
I know nothing about the production, transport and storage of hydrogen, but petrol stations don't refine their own petrol and diesel so why can't hydrogen be distributed in the same way?
 
I think the answer to your question is in the video.
if it was easy and cheap to transport hydrogen in bulk, why did they set up a fuelling station that produced hydrogen on site?
The simple answer is that although hydrogen has a much higher energy density than petrol, hydrogen is so light compared to petrol that you need to compress hydrogen to a very high pressure to get any decent amount of energy out of it.
Note that in the video the hydrogen used to refuel cars is stored at 10000psi. and goes into the vehicle and is stored in the vehicle at 7500psi
That's a lot of pressure!!!
To make a large containment vessel such as would be needed on a fuel tanker that could safely hold a flammable gas at 10000 psi would be prohibitively expensive.
I dread to think what would happen if a tanker full of hydrogen at 10000 psi were to be involved in an accident and rupture
Also, because hydrogen is the smallest atom in the periodic table, leakage- particularly when stored at high pressure is also a significant problem.
At the moment there are a total of 11 hydrogen refuelling stations in the UK and AFAIK all produce hydrogen on site

Cheers

Bruce
 
Using ammonia as the shipping medium then converting to hydrogen is much easier/ safer. We maintain H2 filling stations in the Netherlands, alongside a supply grid and manufacture hydrogen commercially/ viably. It’s not at scale in most countries yet but it’s coming folks.
 
Using ammonia as the shipping medium then converting to hydrogen is much easier/ safer. We maintain H2 filling stations in the Netherlands, alongside a supply grid and manufacture hydrogen commercially/ viably. It’s not at scale in most countries yet but it’s coming folks.
I agree that shipping ammonia liquid is safer than 10000psi hydrogen, but you don't get a huge amount of hydrogen out of a load of ammonia
Ammonia is one nitrogen atom and 3 hydrogen atoms (which, I agree. sounds good), but nitrogen is 14 times heavier than hydrogen so, for each molecule of ammonia only 3/14 of that molecules weight is hydrogen.
If you ship a load of (say) 10 tons of ammonia, you'll finish up with just over 2 tons of hydrogen which then has to be pressurised before it can be used for fuel, and almost 8 tons of nitrogen that just gets released into the atmosphere.

Cheers

Bruce
 
The same old ill-informed anti-EV propaganda being regurgitated.

Likewise the hydrogen for personal vehicles dead-horse-flogging continues. Hydrogen may have a role in future energy storage but it won't be for cars. Google "hydrogen ladder" and read around the subject if you are interested in where/how it might have a role.

Confirmation bias is strong with the FUD-BRIGADE so I am not expecting anyone to have an interest in challenging their views and accepting they may be mis-informed.

I'm going to bookmark the thread and come back in ten-fifteen years or so to watch the luddites eat their words.
 
I think the answer to your question is in the video.
if it was easy and cheap to transport hydrogen in bulk, why did they set up a fuelling station that produced hydrogen on site?
The simple answer is that although hydrogen has a much higher energy density than petrol, hydrogen is so light compared to petrol that you need to compress hydrogen to a very high pressure to get any decent amount of energy out of it.
Note that in the video the hydrogen used to refuel cars is stored at 10000psi. and goes into the vehicle and is stored in the vehicle at 7500psi
That's a lot of pressure!!!
To make a large containment vessel such as would be needed on a fuel tanker that could safely hold a flammable gas at 10000 psi would be prohibitively expensive.
I dread to think what would happen if a tanker full of hydrogen at 10000 psi were to be involved in an accident and rupture
Also, because hydrogen is the smallest atom in the periodic table, leakage- particularly when stored at high pressure is also a significant problem.
At the moment there are a total of 11 hydrogen refuelling stations in the UK and AFAIK all produce hydrogen on site

Cheers

Bruce
It is still early days for hydrogen as a road fuel. Lots of pilot projects, but potentially could be useful.

As I see it, at the moment, there are two ways of making the stuff. Steam reformation of methane (natural gas), which is done on a massive industrial scale, where the hydrogen is needed for industrial chemical processes. A big one being to make nitrogen fertilisers, ammonia, nitric acid etc. The by product being CO2. Some of which is valuable for other things, such as making fizzy drinks, beer, even keeping our aging nuclear gas cooled (by CO2) reactors gassed up.

Keeping this on topic, nitric acid is fundamental to making shooting powders and other explosives, which was the original impetus for Fritz Haber to invent the process, during WWI, to keep Germany supplied.

You might recall a recent crisis where the main fertilizer plants in the UK were switched off due to being uneconomic to operate with current soaring gas prices. The knock on effect of basically switching off UK CO2 production for other uses requiring the Government to step in and subsidise them. And possibly also worried about fertiliser shortages going forward. Ultimately from taxpayers money of course.

There is talk of "greening" this by carbon capture and storage, (injecting it into old oil wells and forgetting about it) but despite a lot of talk about that, its not being done yet AFAIK. Nor is it ever likely to be done for coal or gas fired power stations despite a lot of studies.

This stuff is often called "blue" hydrogen. There is even talk, and some pilot studies, about using it to replace, in whole or in part, our domestic gas supplies. Which makes little sense to me. Reforming methane to hydrogen is an inefficient process.

Then there is electrolysis. To make "green" hydrogen. A lot of work on these, some big ones are approaching 80% efficiency in turning kWh of electricity into kWh of hydrogen. Whilst also producing oxygen which might have a value too. Potentially this could be a great way of storing surplus wind energy, hydro from other countries, or delivered from them by pipeline, even solar. Or, dare I say it, from Nuclear.

Large scale storage in cryogenic liquid form, tankered or shipped around. Boiled up again and compressed to say 350 or 700 BAR for road fuel or other uses. Some analysis of the efficiency of that: https://www.hydrogen.energy.gov/pdfs/9013_energy_requirements_for_hydrogen_gas_compression.pdf

But then how to use the hydrogen to power vehicles ? Basically expensive fuel cells, or burn it in an adapted internal combustion engine. Both have inefficiencies, and seem to me to be broadly comparable in real world use, at the moment. And burning hydrogen can create a lot of NOx, that has to be dealt with, maybe by straightforward catalytic convertors, or "AdBlue" urea injection approaches, now well proven.

Or, green hydrogen can be combined with CO2 from other sources to make synthetic liquid fuels, for aviation or even road use. Nearly carbon neutral.
 
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What most people don't know, or don't want to know is that hydrogen fuel cell vehicles also need a traction battery as well as the hydrogen fuel cell.
The fuel cell can produce electricity at a rate high enough for the electric car to drive at a steady continuous speed but cannot produce enough electricity when the car accelerates.
In this situation the traction battery is needed to provide the additional power demanded by the drive motor(s)
When the car is back running at normal speed there is just enough electricity being produced by the fuel cell to top up the battery, plus the battery gets some charge from regenerative braking.
The point is that a fuel cell on it's own is not enough to power the vehicle in all situations.
The Toyota Mirai has a 1.6KWH battery to supplement the fuel cell
1.6KWH is bigger than the batteries in almost all the "self charging hybrids" on sale at the moment.

Cheers

Bruce
 
Just watched Channel Fours "Dispatches The Truth About Electric Cars".
Bit of a eye opener, download and watch it, your view of EVs may change.
 
Strange isn't it... with how stupid simple and cheap it is to build an electric car compared to an ICE.
So why dont manufactures want to do it?
Is it because they and their dealers live of services, repairs, maintenance?


Teslas Model 3 profit margins are over 30% pr car...
 
Just watched Channel Fours "Dispatches The Truth About Electric Cars".
Bit of a eye opener, download and watch it, your view of EVs may change.
Can you provide a brief summary to save me having to watch it? Thanks.
 
45% of all chargers are in London and the South East.
Wales has 4% of the chargers.
to keep batteries in optimum condition only charge to 80% and don't go below 20%.
Ranges quoted are under laboratory conditions not real life ( same as petrol and diesel).
A second hand EV had a motorway range of 17 miles from full charge.
30% of chargers not in use - faulty.
totally inadequate infrastructure for charging EVs.
 
...you realise how much time and effort is spent finding and smelly fueling an ICE car
Ungrateful aren't we? Smelly fuels have shown you a bloody good time for the vast percentage of your life and thats how you thank them?
Considering you recent realisation- I'm glad I wont be bumping into you at a petrol station any time soon 😂

Effort filling a car FFS hahaha
 
The vast majority of ev chargers are at the homes of ev owners
So it would be more correct to say that 45% of all chargers NOT at ev owners homes are in the South east.
Most ev owners charge their car at home using cheap off peak electricity.
The UK government gives grants of up to £350 to have a home charger fitted and the Scottish government provides another grant of up to £250 on top of that to have a home charger fitted
Given that most car journeys are less than 20 miles per day, the vast majority of ev owners rarely, if ever, need to using a roadside charging station
Keeping the battery between 20% and 80% charged does help to extend the life of the battery, but charging rate also has an effect.
Fast charging degrades the battery more quickly than charging at the much slower rate afforded by a home charger.
Remember that all currently available evs have a battery warranty that will result in the manufacturer replacing the battery if it's capacity drops below 80% within 8 years of the vehicle being new
The ranges quoted for evs varied depends on the test cycle (WLTP, NEDC, EPA) and, as you say, just like for petrol and diesel vehicles, the results are always over optimistic
A simple guide to ev "fuel consumption" would be that 4 miles per kwh is good and 2 miles per kwh is poor.

Cheers

Bruce
 
Don't get me wrong, I like the idea of a EV, but ...
I need a 4x4 pick up for work, there isn't one yet.
My wife has a commute of 90 miles per day, once or twice a week it is nearer 200 miles in a day.
The village we live in about 70% of the houses including mine have no drive, that means no charging availability.
Although one day things may change.
 
Ungrateful aren't we?
Effort filling a car FFS hahaha

Not ungrateful, just unhooking from an outdated technology for a cleaner, cheaper alternative.

Previously I spent over a half an hour a week, lots of money and quite a few miles refueling. I prefer to be spending that time and money supporting my local pub. But if you prefer brumming around petrol stations, standing around in the cold breathing in carcinogens, whilst paying vast sums of money out to multinationals be my guest...the comparison sounds quite Darwinian really...survival of those most adaptable to change. Enjoy your fumes! 😄
 
Don't get me wrong, I like the idea of a EV, but ...
I need a 4x4 pick up for work, there isn't one yet.
My wife has a commute of 90 miles per day, once or twice a week it is nearer 200 miles in a day.
The village we live in about 70% of the houses including mine have no drive, that means no charging availability.
Although one day things may change.
There you go.
Agh sorry, I just saw it has vegan leather seating? with performance stitching.
 
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