The New Normal Pup Price

[countrryboy]

The problem with all these high prices is that some people who are less well off, can no longer afford a dog. Yet some of these folk would make far better owners than than the people who can afford to splash out £2-3K. Keepers wages are not that high so how could they afford a team of dogs at such prices ? Similarly the guy who goes beating or picking up on a big shoot just to get a beaters day at the season is going to be priced out. Wealth is not a guarantee of suitability as regards to owning a dog. Some of the best owners I know are some of the least well off.

I know 1 grouse area where a lot of local keepers just run a team entirely from the local rescue centre.
Many are running 5 or even 10 dogs at a time, as most grouse keepers will run big kennels
I would imagine plenty off those boys will be breeding and passing pups between themselves, for free as they have always done, as the actual costs off breeding haven't gone up much if at all, even stud fees aren't up that much.
don't get me wrong some are a bit ruff and ready but do put grouse in the bag.
So do do a job.

A mate also sold a very decent litter just a few months ago for 900 quid, fully health tested and fox red ( if that's ur thing, he's ran dark yellow dogs for years long before a fashion accessory)
So normal priced dogs are out there if u know where to look, just many will be sold before there born or purely by word of mouth.

 

[Dan Newcombe]

I know 1 grouse area where a lot of local keepers just run a team entirely from the local rescue centre.
Many are running 5 or even 10 dogs at a time, as most grouse keepers will run big kennels
I would imagine plenty off those boys will be breeding and passing pups between themselves, for free as they have always done, as the actual costs off breeding haven't gone up much if at all, even stud fees aren't up that much.
don't get me wrong some are a bit ruff and ready but do put grouse in the bag.
So do do a job.

A mate also sold a very decent litter just a few months ago for 900 quid, fully health tested and fox red ( if that's ur thing, he's ran dark yellow dogs for years long before a fashion accessory)
So normal priced dogs are out there if u know where to look, just many will be sold before there born or purely by word of mouth.

Thing is with this that you need to be ‘in the gang’ and not many people are because it’s a gang that’s pretty limited in membership for good reason - hence have to pay for dogs at the going rate asked for by the seller, be that £2.5k, £1k or whatever.

 

[Lloyd90]

I know 1 grouse area where a lot of local keepers just run a team entirely from the local rescue centre.
Many are running 5 or even 10 dogs at a time, as most grouse keepers will run big kennels
I would imagine plenty off those boys will be breeding and passing pups between themselves, for free as they have always done, as the actual costs off breeding haven't gone up much if at all, even stud fees aren't up that much.
don't get me wrong some are a bit ruff and ready but do put grouse in the bag.
So do do a job.

A mate also sold a very decent litter just a few months ago for 900 quid, fully health tested and fox red ( if that's ur thing, he's ran dark yellow dogs for years long before a fashion accessory)
So normal priced dogs are out there if u know where to look, just many will be sold before there born or purely by word of mouth.

I suppose that comes down to standards.
With 10+ dogs running around, sweeping up every inch of ground, those 10 dogs will no doubt put grouse in the bag.
One of them is almost bound to come across the bird on the floor with that many running around.

Does that mean that any of them are decent dogs?

I certainly wouldn't want a pup off those type of dogs as don't think it proves any sort of game finding ability.

But then again my favourite shooting is one many and one dog, rough shooting a few walked up birds. My springer last season flushed a pair of birds, I dropped both with two shots and one ran on. He followed the scent a good 70-80 yards twisting and turning through cover crop in all sorts of directions, found the runner, and returned to deliver to hand.

Now that to me shows game finding ability.


Having 10+ dogs sweep through an area will, as you say, put birds in the bag. But the point I am making is, unless the person looking for a pup wants to do that same sort of think, they might be better off trying to find a pup with parents who possess the qualities they are after.

For someone who aims to have 10+ dogs sweeping up, then don't worry about it

 

[Keith Edmunds]

Just had a look at the 'popular pet sales website'.......Not much has changed yet. Wire-haired dachshund/Teckel starting at £1850 for non KC reg and going up to £2800 for registered.

I can also see that 'working-dog' owners/breeders who have, in the past, knocked the high prices are also advertising on the site at £2k plus, so it seems what they say and what they do are not quite aligned!

I have also noticed people often use the phrase 'selling to working homes' as if it seems to also have a reference to 'working class' and that, somehow is meant to equate to a lower income. Hmmm, I think the coal mine and whippet days with a family of 8 living in a 2up, 2down are behind us.

I have personally not found any evidence that 'pet-owners' are and more affluent than 'working-dog-owners', in fact, in 2021 I would say the scales tip to the contrary.

What do others think on that matter?

 

[baguio]

I can also see that 'working-dog' owners/breeders who have, in the past, knocked the high prices are also advertising on the site at £2k plus, so it seems what they say and what they do are not quite aligned!

I have said it throughout this post Keith. The health tested working dog is £2K plus from every source that I investigated. The people who say that they would charge a lot less than the going rate don't have any pups for sale so what they claim cannot be tested and in all honesty I just don't believe them.
It's going to be a while before the price comes down IMO.

 

[marrajack]

I wonder if people will think that £1500 is actually a 'fair' price for a well-bred, well-reared pup or if they would still think it is overpriced but are 'forced' to pay it? As I have mentioned, considering what we are happy to pay for scopes, rifles, bins, 4x4's, coats, boots, etc I always feel that we undervalue the working dog.

I think it’s where prices will end up
My issue is not with the cost, but even at £1500 with people thinking 7k Ish can be made from a litter - any old crap will be getting mated .
The working dog is very much something seen through many pairs of eyes - I had a very interesting craic with an old mate regarding working terriers (this lad has dug too as many dogs as anyone) Some lads he knew wanted a working terrier - but not one that stayed !!
Now in the future this dog may well bolt a few foxes from bad places and be great for that application, but if you breed that with another terrier that works like that or even a top dog. It’s not a 100% working terrier for me
Terriers are being sold for a grand now so will everyone be honest ?
As said at the top it’s not the cost but the potential damage to breeds I am concerned about
Borders, parson Jack Russell, fox terrier, Lakeland terrier all have suffered due to KC Reg and inflation of prices
True honest people will keep the breeding true and hopefully keep that critical eye on stock and breed appropriate regardless of financial temptation- but many sadly will not

 

[Keith Edmunds]

I think it’s where prices will end up
My issue is not with the cost, but even at £1500 with people thinking 7k Ish can be made from a litter - any old crap will be getting mated .
The working dog is very much something seen through many pairs of eyes - I had a very interesting craic with an old mate regarding working terriers (this lad has dug too as many dogs as anyone) Some lads he knew wanted a working terrier - but not one that stayed !!
Now in the future this dog may well bolt a few foxes from bad places and be great for that application, but if you breed that with another terrier that works like that or even a top dog. It’s not a 100% working terrier for me
Terriers are being sold for a grand now so will everyone be honest ?
As said at the top it’s not the cost but the potential damage to breeds I am concerned about
Borders, parson Jack Russell, fox terrier, Lakeland terrier all have suffered due to KC Reg and inflation of prices
True honest people will keep the breeding true and hopefully keep that critical eye on stock and breed appropriate regardless of financial temptation- but many sadly will not

TBH I see the working terrier problem differently. It's all about scale. It is a simple fact that the 'true' earth-work fraternity (not the B*llsh1tters) are only a tiny fraction of the total number of terrier owners. They will never have sufficient influence over the entire gene pool - completely regardless of KC recognition or not.

Let's say, for example, 5% of JRT owners work their dogs to ground - that proportion will never have sufficient influence - the number is simply to small. We can cry into our cornflakes all day long about the good old days but earth-work is going to be completely niche in the UK. I applaud those few individuals who breed for it but they can never have any real impact on a large gene pool.

 

[marrajack]

TBH I see the working terrier problem differently. It's all about scale. It is a simple fact that the 'true' earth-work fraternity (not the B*llsh1tters) are only a tiny fraction of the total number of terrier owners. They will never have sufficient influence over the entire gene pool - completely regardless of KC recognition or not.

Let's say, for example, 5% of JRT owners work their dogs to ground - that proportion will never have sufficient influence - the number is simply to small. We can cry into our cornflakes all day long about the good old days but earth-work is going to be completely niche in the UK. I applaud those few individuals who breed for it but they can never have any real impact on a large gene pool.

I agree Keith but the breed standard should be capable of working. I used terriers cos that’s what I know a wee bit about. People should still breed working dogs true, regardless of the breed but with price increase where a tax free annual income of a minimum wage equivalent is possible from a litter - will people decide not to breed from a below average bitch ?

 

[Lloyd90]

Just had a look at the 'popular pet sales website'.......Not much has changed yet. Wire-haired dachshund/Teckel starting at £1850 for non KC reg and going up to £2800 for registered.

I can also see that 'working-dog' owners/breeders who have, in the past, knocked the high prices are also advertising on the site at £2k plus, so it seems what they say and what they do are not quite aligned!

I have also noticed people often use the phrase 'selling to working homes' as if it seems to also have a reference to 'working class' and that, somehow is meant to equate to a lower income. Hmmm, I think the coal mine and whippet days with a family of 8 living in a 2up, 2down are behind us.

I have personally not found any evidence that 'pet-owners' are and more affluent than 'working-dog-owners', in fact, in 2021 I would say the scales tip to the contrary.

What do others think on that matter?

I’m starting to see a few ads which I think shows the pups aren’t selling as easily.

Quite a few ads with pups £2,000+ and they have 2-3 pups left over at 10+ weeks old. I wouldn’t want one at that age anyway, heard about the Hancock lurcher lads who used to buy the ones off him left over at 10+ weeks and said they had a lot of separation anxiety issues because theyr’d stayed too long.


I was today offered a potential pup from a mate who I consider a proper dog man, his FTW bitch x to his Irish bred hard hunting dog, for a hell of a lot less than most the **** being bred out there at the moment.


Re working men prices etc. Shooting is an expensive hobby but there seems to be a huge divide.

There are working dog folk on shoots who seems to have the dog as a fashion accessory, pulling up in their new Range Rover, dressed head to toe in designer gear whilst taking photos for their social media. I am seeing more and more of this, no offence to anyone but I am seeing more and more ‘horsey woman’ types with the latest fashionable gundog in tow, it’s very fashionable to take the dog to a shoot let it run around totally out of control, and then tell all your mates you have a “working Gundog” and list a randomly high number of shoot days that your dog apparently works each season.

They’re then breeding these dogs, who are supposedly “working dogs” or “hard workers”, when in fact a lot of them are shite, or have faults that the owner doesn’t even know is a fault or chooses to ignore.

It seems to be a lot worse in cockers than in springers sadly. I still remember going to a test last year to see a woman with a dog that couldn’t clear a 2ft high jump or do a basic retrieve telling everyone how her lovely dark red cocker had already sired 3 litters at around 2 years of age. The dog was complete crap, and had been bred multiple times. God knows how many litters it’s aired now!!




I do know a few proper working blokes into spaniels and shooting. Most aren’t loaded or massively well off.

You would not find them on commercial shoots or any of that nonsense. Most shoot wild game in untamed lands. Wild woodcock and the odd pheasant on hillsides or


Waterfowl on marshes etc.

Proper dog folk. They will only breed a dog if he is worth it, and they actually know if he’s worth it because they actually hunt and shoot over that dog.

If he has a fault, won’t hit cover, won’t retrieve etc, they won’t pretend how great he is and breed him anyway because they know that would ruin their line for future hunting. They are actually testing the dog in a proper working environment.

 

[Lloyd90]

I agree Keith but the breed standard should be capable of working. I used terriers cos that’s what I know a wee bit about. People should still breed working dogs true, regardless of the breed but with price increase where a tax free annual income of a minimum wage equivalent is possible from a litter - will people decide not to breed from a below average bitch ?

It’s nothing new, as I highlight in my above post, but it’s a lot more prolific now prices are high and I imagine will remain a lot more prolific in future.


Sadly many people will tell prospective buyers that their dogs are worked on shoots but simply turning up with a dog on a shoot dog is a very low bar to make that dog a “working dog” worthy of being bred from.

I have found that on most shoots it’s an awkward subject and no one wants to tell someone else that their dog is **** and not to come back.

Most of those owners however will gladly tell anyone down the pub that their dog works 50+ days a season and what a good worker he is.

Try asking them “does the dog have any faults as listed in the J Reg’s that mean it shouldn’t be bred from?”... bet they won’t even know what your on about!

 

[jimmy milnes]

I wouldn’t want one at that age anyway, heard about the Hancock lurcher lads who used to buy the ones off him left over at 10+ weeks and said they had a lot of separation anxiety issues because theyr’d stayed too long.

Hancock was a puppy farmer "any old collie to any old greyhound" a bloke breeding that many lurchers couldn't possibly work them all properly to test them. The he only reason people wanted his dogs was because plummer "don't get me started" wrote about them in his books an bigged them up.. so possibly nothing to do with being 10 weeks an perhaps more to do with lack of proper socialisation/interaction.

 

[Keith Edmunds]

I agree Keith but the breed standard should be capable of working. I used terriers cos that’s what I know a wee bit about. People should still breed working dogs true, regardless of the breed but with price increase where a tax free annual income of a minimum wage equivalent is possible from a litter - will people decide not to breed from a below average bitch ?

In an ideal world, I would agree that working breeds should be bred to be capable of work but there is absolutely no doubt that what we class as 'work' simply MUST be redefined to keep up with changing times. To work a terrier below ground against fox is just not that accessible or possible. Combine mild winters with high numbers of badger (and cohabitation - if on the outer edges of a sett) with an increase in the general public on footpaths and the efficiency of night shooting with thermal imaging and it is tough. Take my own position as an example, I have a dachshund that loves working underground, and for the last two seasons I have asked two keeper friend for the opportunity to work the dog and all of the above factors have worked against us......We have to either redefine what we class as work or............ accept the fact that earth-working terriers can only have a very minimal impact on the entire gene-pool.

Can you imagine the ghost of an old Gulf of St Lawrence fisherman moaning that today's black, dense-coated retriever has never hauled a rope across the ice-cold, choppy waves, from boat to boat and that most simply spend their days making easy retrieves from a peg?....... Times change - breeds adapt.

 

[Keith Edmunds]

Hancock was a puppy farmer "any old collie to any old greyhound" a bloke breeding that many lurchers couldn't possibly work them all properly to test them. The he only reason people wanted his dogs was because plummer "don't get me started" wrote about them in his books an bigged them up.. so possibly nothing to do with being 10 weeks an perhaps more to do with lack of proper socialisation/interaction.

To be fair, his collies, or the ones that I knew of, did come from good working lines I believe? I do believe that he used any greyhound though. In the 80's/early 90's animal husbandry was non-existent at his place. I literally could not breathe in one of his whelping barns due to the stench of ammonia. When we went to see Linnet she had a half a dozen rabbit skeletons in her run, dotted around the piles of poo. Poor old Rufus was as blind as a bat and tried to jump a 5-bar gate but was a yard too short and lumped his chin on the top bar. Hancock's kitchen.........had bloody straw on the floor in a gap where a fridge used to be and the table must have had 30 dirty coffee cups on it. We laugh about it now.

My mate still bought a half-decent reverse 3/4 bred, nice dog actually but Jeeez!!! That place was a state back then.

 

[Jeffsy]

If this “New Normal Pup Price” remains so high this will be a great way to give up actual work!
Buy a couple of mutts. Breed the hell out of them. Make a shed load of cash. Rinse and repeat.
Who gives a toss about future lines, health of breed, quality of owners when the cash is this easy?
As profitable as selling drugs but all perfectly legal and much less likely to be shot by fellow dealers breeders!

Plenty of reasons posted on the thread to justify it as well

 

[jimmy milnes]

If this “New Normal Pup Price” remains so high this will be a great way to give up actual work!
Buy a couple of mutts. Breed the hell out of them. Make a shed load of cash. Rinse and repeat.
Who gives a toss about future lines, health of breed, quality of owners when the cash is this easy?
As profitable as selling drugs but all perfectly legal and much less likely to be shot by fellow dealers breeders!

Plenty of reasons posted on the thread to justify it as well

You want to rake it in try breeding peregrines

 

[Jeffsy]

You want to rake it in try breeding peregrines

Didn’t even know that was a thing!

 

[Lloyd90]

If this “New Normal Pup Price” remains so high this will be a great way to give up actual work!
Buy a couple of mutts. Breed the hell out of them. Make a shed load of cash. Rinse and repeat.
Who gives a toss about future lines, health of breed, quality of owners when the cash is this easy?
As profitable as selling drugs but all perfectly legal and much less likely to be shot by fellow dealers breeders!

Plenty of reasons posted on the thread to justify it as well

Wait and see... as said it’s all on demand.

Your idea of buying a load of mto breed is only worth while if the prices remain the same... all the pricks off work during lockdown have already bought dogs.

So in 6 - 18 months when that dog is wrecking their home and they don’t have time to walk it, will the demand be so high?

The demand has been driven by the pet market not the gundog market, people have been buying gundogs mostly as pets

Anyone who knows what they’re doing who was looking for a gundog pup wouldn’t have wanted half the shite bred anyway.


The ONLY thing that is going to bring down prices across the board on a other scale of demand.

Before lockdown I regular heard of people with award winning springer pups struggling to sell 2-3 pups (especially dog pups).

If it goes back to people being unable to sell their shite bred pups for £2000 then obviously the prices will drop, cos none of them wants to be stuck with 3-4 pups going mental. Most of them aren’t even breeding to keep a pup back for themselves and don’t want to be ‘stuck’ with even a single pup.

 

[jimmy milnes]

Soooooo....
To play devil's advocate, everyone is slating the person selling pups without a thought to the breeding being a suitable match... What about stud owners an the possible lack of interest in whether the bitch is any good? How many stud owners want to see a bitch work prior to her turning up on there doorstep with a tuppy the size of a blood orange..

 

[jimmy milnes]

And "simply because I love winding folk up "

If I had a bitch an bred her at 2 years old and paid my tax to HMRC on the litter,
Could I then not offset all future food, vets costs an any other sundry items against future tax bills for as long as I had said bitch.....

Now Where's my tin hat.......

 

[countrryboy]

And "simply because I love winding folk up "

If I had a bitch an bred her at 2 years old and paid my tax to HMRC on the litter,
Could I then not offset all future food, vets costs an any other sundry items against future tax bills for as long as I had said bitch.....

Now Where's my tin hat.......

Should u not be doing that anyway?
If u get paid for beating/picking up anyway, even 1 or 2 days, tax man cant have it all his own way.

I've always put my beating money throu and claim back my expenses on dogs.
But I've always been SE, but if ur paying tax on an income u may be able to claim ur expenses on same income. ( Ps not an accountant)