The New Normal Pup Price

[countrryboy]

Soooooo....
To play devil's advocate, everyone is slating the person selling pups without a thought to the breeding being a suitable match... What about stud owners an the possible lack of interest in whether the bitch is any good? How many stud owners want to see a bitch work prior to her turning up on there doorstep with a tuppy the size of a blood orange..

U are spot on with that comment, but it will never change as it's the top names making all the money from it.
And that it is real money, with none off the hassle of pups, I heard a keeper I now ( A panel judge too) has had 70 matings this year already with 1 off his dogs and he's only got a small kennel.
The boy up the road, God knows how many he's had with his championship winning dog. Think he has 2 most weeks!
Really not good for the breed.
I mind when a local lad won the champs quite a few years ago now, was 1st person I knew to have won it, and heard it many times since, other FT boys saying only mistake he made was winning it with a bitch.

There is only 1 lad I know who always ran chocolate and deep fox red labs and gets them to a very decent standard ( usually there or thereabouts at Open local working tests) but he refuse to put his dogs over anything not fully health tested.
Fair play to him.

Think he's the only breeder Ive ever heard of turning down money for a stud

 

[stone]

Apologies in advance but this thread breaks me.....

2k per pup... 6 pups =12k (simple maths lets not complicate the matter I understand litters can vary but let’s just go with 6 )

Now can someone explain to me how they can justify the price of a pup other than greed!

The last litter of labradors I bred were £600 each. Full kc papers and working parents FTCHs, vet checks, inoculations etc etc.

We had 6 pups I kept one so we sold 5.

600 x 5= £3,000 I didn’t scrimp on their rearing and whelping and I can assure you I made a handsome profit!

It’s Utter bollocks that dogs warrant this kind of money because we never used to charge these prices and we were never in debt when we raised a litter of pups, we’re we? I know I wasn’t!

A fool and his money is easily parted!

Rant over....

Im just trying to work out the cost of having a litter..
£1500 for the bitch I imported in
I already own the stud and he has proven his worth and ability
2 years of training ,testing & work to make sure the bitch will make the grade desired for what I wanted before breeding costs I’ll never be able to put a price on .
Health tests for both sire and dam £1000 plus days off work and fuel to go to vets for their health tests
Whelping box , lamp and Lino floor covering £350
Puppy pen £70
Vet bed £60
Puppy milk powder £50 a tub
Puppy food £30
Extra feed and supplements for the whelping bitch and pups
4 weeks off work to look after pups initially £2000 in loss of wages but then you have the issues of weekends and evenings that you lose
Not to mention the other 4 weeks for care till ready to go
No free time
1st vac & Micro chip for 7 puppies £250
Worming
Registration costs
It’s certainly adding up for sure
£1000 for the DIY cost I did while off work lol..
And if good breeding what price can you put on your future name and lines
But pocket wise it will come to around 6k by the time the pups are ready to leave
It has made me think now Ive started totalling some of the costs.

 

[Lloyd90]

Soooooo....
To play devil's advocate, everyone is slating the person selling pups without a thought to the breeding being a suitable match... What about stud owners an the possible lack of interest in whether the bitch is any good? How many stud owners want to see a bitch work prior to her turning up on there doorstep with a tuppy the size of a blood orange..

Practically none!!

Look at the Facebook Groups for studs etc. Even the boys who complain about people breeding shite will post up their stud dog stats as soon as someone posts saying they want their bitch covered.

Untested, young (probably unproven) bitch gets posted up from so so lines, they're all happy to take the £300-500 quid stud fee.
Who wouldn't be? I suppose the thought is, someone's going to cover the bitch.

Are they better off using a crap stud? or a decent one? Will the pups at least have half a chance of being half tidy workers?

 

[Lloyd90]

Im just trying to work out the cost of having a litter..
£1500 for the bitch I imported in
I already own the stud and he has proven his worth and ability
2 years of training ,testing & work to make sure the bitch will make the grade desired for what I wanted before breeding costs I’ll never be able to put a price on .
Health tests for both sire and dam £1000 plus days off work and fuel to go to vets for their health tests
Whelping box , lamp and Lino floor covering £350
Puppy pen £70
Vet bed £60
Puppy milk powder £50 a tub
Puppy food £30
Extra feed and supplements for the whelping bitch and pups
4 weeks off work to look after pups initially £2000 in loss of wages but then you have the issues of weekends and evenings that you lose
Not to mention the other 4 weeks for care till ready to go
No free time
1st vac & Micro chip for 7 puppies £250
Worming
Registration costs
It’s certainly adding up for sure
£1000 for the DIY cost I did while off work lol..
And if good breeding what price can you put on your future name and lines
But pocket wise it will come to around 6k by the time the pups are ready to leave
It has made me think now Ive started totalling some of the costs.

Most those costs are optional.

A load of people banging out litters are breeding bitches that are (hopefully) 2+ years old, that they bought years ago for about £500-800.
They paid a stud fee of say £300-800 depending on stud and breed.

The time spent working and breeding the dog is almost irrelevant, a load of the stuff that's been bred recently wasn't amazing workers that the breeder has spent 2 years critically assessing to see if they are worthy of breeding. Most of them are pets that have done the odd day on a shoot, some might have been decent dogs on the day even.

Health tests (a lot of stuff that's being bred hasn't even been tested), but of the stuff that has the cost varies massively.


You don't have to spend £350 on some lino and a whelping box. You don't have to buy fake puppy milk, you don't have to take 4 weeks off work (most people I know don't).
You certainly don't have to spend £1000 on DIY whilst messing about that's got nothing to do with the cost of the litter.

Docking and registration etc isn't that much.



You have then failed to take into account that a lot of those things, health tests, whelping setup, etc, can be used for more than 1 litter, that's not a new cost everytime you breed, a lot of people would of already had that stuff.

So what is the real cost of having a litter? I bet its not even close to £6,000 for the VAST majority of breeders. I bet most spend about half that when they take into account one off costs such as health testing and whelping setup.

 

[stone]

I’ve not failed to take anything into account
If I have another litter at a later date there are costs I’ve already forked out for.
Wo betide me for making a profit then that I’ll be taxed on
I’m not a business and I’m not knocking out pups for the fun either.
At the end of the day,
Everything is optional but the reality is
A break down of costs is what I’ve worked it out for me.
Hopefully these pups will turn out as good or better than the parents, as I can’t do no more to ensure it .
If they don’t , there won’t be a repeat mating
I’m not bothered what others have done to break their costs up as or how they raise a litter or even what they haven’t done .
Who looks after the pups when they are not at home and god forbid they don’t have a litter where mum can’t feed them properly
Who hand rears them then?
you certainly will be glad you had fake milk in stock
But in reality it would have been far cheaper for me to pay going price for a pup and import it in than to rear a litter.
Good luck to all those that want demonise every breeder under the same roof
And yes I’m writing this at 4:45 am
Because I’ve got up to make sure the pups have had a feed as they are asking for it

 

[Keith Edmunds]

I think that @stone and @Lloyd90 both have valid points. There are myriad types of breeders and all invest varying amounts of resources into their pups.

1.) Commercial breeders - VAT registered, usually invested large sums of money into the kennel blocks and also have to take wages into account. Big investment into infrastructure but generally less 'hands-on' time invested into socialising, preparing for new sound/experiences, less time spent evaluating the character of each pup, less time spent updating new owners with photos and videos. Food and healthcare generally up to standard. Stud/pedigree choice and decisions - variable depending on breeder - buyer needs to do homework.

2.) Personal use breeder - Mated his/her bitch to keep a pup back. Time spent with bitch and pups generally less as still working in other employment. Generally less expense on kenneling as long as it is sufficient for that litter, that's all that matters. Time spent updating new owners on character/videos/photos - generally less. Food and healthcare generally up to standard.

3.) Hobby breeders - Rarely more than 2 litters per year. Genuine interest in the breed/bloodlines/pedigrees and conscious effort to improve the breed. Big investment in time spent with bitch and puppies. Big investment of time preparing pups for new experiences and socialising. Big investment feeding back character info/photos/videos to new owners. Food and healthcare generally high standard. Knowledge/advice on breed - generally high standard.

4.) For-profit/puppy mill. We all know the type - no concerns over health/feeding/welfare. No genuine interest in breed. No need for more info.

All of the above will be on completely different economic/financial models.

 

[Shabz]

Yeah, when I have litters from my dogs it’s because I want a pup. All of those costs (other than the multiples registrations, number of tails to dock etc.) are to be incurred for my own pup. Selling the other pups is to hopefully recoup the cost of the one I keep. I don’t mind if I make a profit from the rest of the litter but a profit which could pay half of my mortgage off would make me feel like a puppy farmer.

 

[Shabz]

I think that @stone and @Lloyd90 both have valid points. There are myriad types of breeders and all invest varying amounts of resources into their pups.

1.) Commercial breeders - VAT registered, usually invested large sums of money into the kennel blocks and also have to take wages into account. Big investment into infrastructure but generally less 'hands-on' time invested into socialising, preparing for new sound/experiences, less time spent evaluating the character of each pup, less time spent updating new owners with photos and videos. Food and healthcare generally up to standard. Stud/pedigree choice and decisions - variable depending on breeder - buyer needs to do homework.

2.) Personal use breeder - Mated his/her bitch to keep a pup back. Time spent with bitch and pups generally less as still working in other employment. Generally less expense on kenneling as long as it is sufficient for that litter, that's all that matters. Time spent updating new owners on character/videos/photos - generally less. Food and healthcare generally up to standard.

3.) Hobby breeders - Rarely more than 2 litters per year. Genuine interest in the breed/bloodlines/pedigrees and conscious effort to improve the breed. Big investment in time spent with bitch and puppies. Big investment of time preparing pups for new experiences and socialising. Big investment feeding back character info/photos/videos to new owners. Food and healthcare generally high standard. Knowledge/advice on breed - generally high standard.

4.) For-profit/puppy mill. We all know the type - no concerns over health/feeding/welfare. No genuine interest in breed. No need for more info.

All of the above will be on completely different economic/financial models.

I’d consider breeders 1 and 4 to be puppy farmers. Wouldn’t deal with either and would have them put in prison if it was up to me.

 

[marrajack]

I’d consider breeders 1 and 4 to be puppy farmers. Wouldn’t deal with either and would have them put in prison if it was up to me.

I would happily buy from 2-3. I think your sitting on fence too much Shane A good old fashioned stoning rather than prison in my book for 1-4

 

[Keith Edmunds]

I’d consider breeders 1 and 4 to be puppy farmers. Wouldn’t deal with either and would have them put in prison if it was up to me.

There is usually a huge difference between 1 and 4. The best of type 1. do have the best interest of the breed at heart. They might be big show kennels or big working kennels that achieve very good results. As soon as you have 5 to 10 brood bitches and 3 or 4 stud dogs you are in the commercial class. You cannot really be anything else. Staff are probably employed and juveniles dogs are often sent out to professional trainers to get them through the trials or professional show handlers to get the CC's. I know a number of breeders in this category that i both trust and admire but, like I said, not all are the same, so research is vital.

 

[Shabz]

There is usually a huge difference between 1 and 4. The best of type 1. do have the best interest of the breed at heart. They might be big show kennels or big working kennels that achieve very good results. As soon as you have 5 to 10 brood bitches and 3 or 4 stud dogs you are in the commercial class. You cannot really be anything else. Staff are probably employed and juveniles dogs are often sent out to professional trainers to get them through the trials or professional show handlers to get the CC's. I know a number of breeders in this category that i both trust and admire but, like I said, not all are the same, so research is vital.

I consider them mercenaries. When you breed dogs for a profit (through greed or necessity-to pay for staff etc.), you’re a puppy farmer in my mind. Whether or not what you do is good for the breed is irrelevant to me. You’re farming puppies.

I’m happy to concede that they may need to be a necessary evil in our system but I still consider them to be an evil.

I would much prefer a demonetised system where matings have to be approved by the breed club and restrictions are placed on litters per year, age of the dam, number of litters sired by one dog etc.

 

[Keith Edmunds]

I consider them mercenaries. When you breed dogs for a profit (through greed or necessity-to pay for staff etc.), you’re a puppy farmer in my mind. Whether or not what you do is good for the breed is irrelevant to me. You’re farming puppies.

I’m happy to concede that they may need to be a necessary evil in our system but I still consider them to be an evil.

I would much prefer a demonetised system where matings have to be approved by the breed club and restrictions are placed on litters per year, age of the dam, number of litters sired by one dog etc.

This is what I class as a first-class commercial set-up. The dogs that they produce are of very good quality and the welfare is of a high standard. The 'personal' touch might be missing but this is where well-trained staff come in. Certainly not what I class as a 'puppy-farm'.

 

[Shabz]

Looks well set up. Still farm puppies there though, don’t they? That’s the bit I find distasteful. I have a puppy farmer friend who has about 40 labradors with a similar set up. Fantastically clean and well kept but half of her dogs don’t even have names. She probably paid her mortgage off in the last year.

 

[Keith Edmunds]

Looks well set up. Still farm puppies there though, don’t they? That’s the bit I find distasteful. I have a puppy farmer friend who has about 40 labradors with a similar set up. Fantastically clean and well kept but half of her dogs don’t even have names. She probably paid her mortgage off in the last year.

Do they 'farm' puppies? This is one definition of a 'puppy farm'.......

What is a puppy farm?​

A puppy farm is where multiple dogs are continually bred and the puppies sold. They are kept in poor conditions as the 'breeders' don't care for their health and happiness. They are very different to reputable breeders. Usually reputable breeders will only breed one or two different breeds at any one time and should put the health of their puppies and their mothers above a quick profit. Puppy farms tend to have far more breeds than this available, and dogs from puppy farms can be unwell, leading to potential heartache for the unwitting owners who take them on.

The kennel that I have supplied the photos from does not fit the above definition. They only breed one breed (although in three sizes). Welfare is paramount. Stud dogs and brood bitches are top quality, from top quality lines. The puppies are healthy, top quality and globally sought after.

Yes, they produce a large number of puppies per year but is that a crime? Is it morally wrong?

 

[Shabz]

Not illegal but I would consider it morally wrong. These puppies may not be livestock but they’re certainly treated like they are. I know sheep farmers who look after their sheep exceptionally well, does that make them different to other farmers?

It’s farming. It’s raising animals to sell for a profit. Farming. I can’t think of a better term personally.

 

[Keith Edmunds]

Not illegal but I would consider it morally wrong. These puppies may not be livestock but they’re certainly treated like they are. I know sheep farmers who look after their sheep exceptionally well, does that make them different to other farmers?

It’s farming. It’s raising animals to sell for a profit. Farming. I can’t think of a better term personally.

That's assuming that the primary objective is profit? I know for a fact that this is not the case with a couple of large-scale breeders.

Both have the objective of creating a predictable line of the type that they desire. You cannot create and produce a predictable line on a small scale. Both breeders have other successful businesses and the dog-breeding, albeit on a large commercial scale, is a hobby/ambition.

I am certainly not protecting ALL commercial breeders, just pointing out that some are producing to class puppies for the right reasons, in the right way.

 

[countrryboy]

I think it being a wee bit harsh Shabz, I agree with kieth they're are some very good breeders producing well thought out litters.
The couple I know prices are the same as pre covid, mainly cos they've got long waiting lists for pups.

I really don't have a problem with knowledgeable folk producing enough pups to be professional at it.
If they weren't doing it wot would u be left with??
A load off folk breeding there own "excellent" bitch, even if they're keeping a pup, as the sad fact is quite a hefty majority of dog owners and even working dog owners wouldnae ken a good working dog if it bit them on the ar*e.
Atleast with a pup from a breeder it's as near as I'll get to getting a pup which he a predictable temperament/working abilities etc.

The problem is folk breeding dogs when they havnae a clue or/and the massive over use of stud dogs.
The ammount off money involved now is only go g to make everything worse.
As I said earlier in thread when does extra money get improve anything shooting related??? Be in driven shooting, Stalking or dogs even pigeons or wildfowling, money it attracts rogues and folk trying to steal ur ground.

 

[Shabz]

Yeah, I did say that I thought it was probably a necessary evil. The better puppy farmers will do well by the breed. Just that I don’t agree with the morality or lack thereof. I don’t agree with taking folks money for them to shoot your crow or rabbit problem either.

Like I said, I would prefer a far stricter system that made it less possible to make so much money from breeding puppies.
I’m sure they’re not as good as they’re made out to be but I like the sound of the continental breed clubs, where the matings are strictly controlled centrally. I’m sure there will be flaws and exploitation’s as there are in any system but I like the spirit of what they’re about. Good dogs that aren’t just bred randomly but are approved and pups have good homes to go to. Everything is vetted by a third party and therefore standardised.

 

[Keith Edmunds]

Yeah, I did say that I thought it was probably a necessary evil. The better puppy farmers will do well by the breed. Just that I don’t agree with the morality or lack thereof. I don’t agree with taking folks money for them to shoot your crow or rabbit problem either.

Like I said, I would prefer a far stricter system that made it less possible to make so much money from breeding puppies.
I’m sure they’re not as good as they’re made out to be but I like the sound of the continental breed clubs, where the matings are strictly controlled centrally. I’m sure there will be flaws and exploitation’s as there are in any system but I like the spirit of what they’re about. Good dogs that aren’t just bred randomly but are approved and pups have good homes to go to. Everything is vetted by a third party and therefore standardised.

Countryboy is correct in that the large scale breeders that I refer to have not increased their prices and do have very long waiting lists. Their own standards, expectations and codes exceed or mirror those of any breed club, in fact one of the breeders is at the helm of the National Breed Club and is a respected judge at the National and International working trials for the breed.

I would give my right arm to be in their position.

 

[Keith Edmunds]

The current achievements of one of the kennels........

13 FCI World Beauty Champions, 19 WUT World Beauty Champions, 18 FCI European Beauty Champions, 111 Italian Beauty Champions, 83 Italian Work Champions, 49 Absolute Italian Champions, 55 International Beauty Champions, 12 International Expo Champions, 10 International Working Champions, 2 Absolute International Champions, 2 WUT Blood Trace World Champions, 33 Beauty Social Champions (ABC), 20 German Bundessiegers (VDH), 13 German Klubsiegers (DTK), 23 Breeding Champions and at least 195 titles.​