The Old Thermal/NV Debate

[rab19]

Hi All,

Just looking at some older threads on the subject, this one from 2020 Thermal or night vision

Do the the same arguments still hold true or due to advancements in both camps in the last few years is one now any "better" than the other, e.g. the Alpex 4k LRF up against a Pulsar Thermion 2 XG50/XP50 LRF.
Or is it still comparing apples to oranges???

I am currently using a Gen1 Pard DS 35 70 and the reason I ask is that I am saving for a 2nd hand XG50 LRF as a scope for Vermin (small and large) as well as a deer scope (night cull under licence). Still looking at 3K ish and the missus is not impressed.........Or do I try out an Alpex 4K LRF, don't get me wrong the Pard is good but could do with something with a bit more OOMPH and the Zulus and 008's are out as I need to swap the scope around several rifles.

The environment is shooting in East Scotland, so not too miserable and wet on most nights and in mixed woodland, forestry blocks as well as open fields.

Thanks

 

[j500app]

The Natural England night licence did not allow the use of thermal scopes,night vision only.

 

[mealiejimmy]

The Natural England night licence did not allow the use of thermal scopes,night vision only.

The OP is in Eastern Scotland so natural England rules don't apply
It is now legal to use glass, NV or thermal to shoot any deer in Scotland, but at night a night licence is required

Cheers

Bruce

 

[baguio]

The Natural England night licence did not allow the use of thermal scopes,night vision only.

I suspect that that isn't true in England either as I'm sure that plenty of people with have a Night Licence don't use NV.

 

[ASl sniper.177]

I went out with an Alpex 4k for an evening on the Roe bucks. Nothing showed before much before 10 pm. At 10.30 I spotted a deer through my Alpex. This deer was at 545 metres,and I could tell it was a roe. Could I tell it was a buck or a doe,definitely not!

 

[baguio]

I went out with an Alpex 4k for an evening on the Roe bucks. Nothing showed before much before 10 pm. At 10.30 I spotted a deer through my Alpex. This deer was at 545 metres,and I could tell it was a roe. Could I tell it was a buck or a doe,definitely not!

Crikey, you would struggle to sex a young buck from a doe in summer coat at that range with glass in daylight.

 

[mealiejimmy]

Hi All,

Just looking at some older threads on the subject, this one from 2020 Thermal or night vision

Do the the same arguments still hold true or due to advancements in both camps in the last few years is one now any "better" than the other, e.g. the Alpex 4k LRF up against a Pulsar Thermion 2 XG50/XP50 LRF.
Or is it still comparing apples to oranges???

I am currently using a Gen1 Pard DS 35 70 and the reason I ask is that I am saving for a 2nd hand XG50 LRF as a scope for Vermin (small and large) as well as a deer scope (night cull under licence). Still looking at 3K ish and the missus is not impressed.........Or do I try out an Alpex 4K LRF, don't get me wrong the Pard is good but could do with something with a bit more OOMPH and the Zulus and 008's are out as I need to swap the scope around several rifles.

The environment is shooting in East Scotland, so not too miserable and wet on most nights and in mixed woodland, forestry blocks as well as open fields.

Thanks

The gulf in image detail between NV and thermal is still large and will not get any smaller, any time soon
IMHO, for deer control thermal doesn't generally give enough detail to allow a shooter to reliably sex deer
I know that there is now no closed season for male deer in Scotland but trying to sex a roe deer during the close season for does is not easy with thermal, but doable with NV
Frankly you won't gain much by changing your Gen1 PARD DS35-70 for a HIK Alpex 4k
The Alpex 4k doesn't come with an IR and by the time you fit one, the set up weighs more than double your PARD
Also, the base mag on the Alpex 4k is x3.5 compared to x5.6 on the PARD so that when you bring the Alpex up to the same magnification as the PARD almost all of the benefit of the 4k sensor is lost
The daytime image on both is essentially the same, the HIK is significantly better low light (it retains a usable colour image longer than the PARD) and in full darkness there's not much to choose between the two
There's nothing you could shoot with the Alpex 4k that you couldn't shoot with the PARD
I had a Thermion XG50LRF and sold it (for a good bit less than £3k)
Basically, I'm fed up of the Pulsar thermal image that always makes me think I'm looking at a scene through a net curtain
If you don't need a rangefinder (and for most centrefires at typical ranges you don't) then you can save some money and get a scope with a better image by buying a HIK Thunder 2 TQ50

Cheers

Bruce

 

[mealiejimmy]

I went out with an Alpex 4k for an evening on the Roe bucks. Nothing showed before much before 10 pm. At 10.30 I spotted a deer through my Alpex. This deer was at 545 metres,and I could tell it was a roe. Could I tell it was a buck or a doe,definitely not!

OK, maybe not 545m, but with the Arken Zulus 5-20 an hour after sunset this roe at nearly 500 yards is clearly a doe


Cheers

Bruce

 

[ASl sniper.177]

OK, maybe not 545m, but with the Arken Zulus 5-20 an hour after sunset this roe at nearly 500 yards is clearly a doe


Cheers

Bruce

I'm new to Stalking directory,but not to rifle shooting. I've already learned that there really aren't that many people that know what they're talking about,but you are definitely one that does. I've ruffled a few feathers since joining SD,but everything I've posted is based on time served in the field.

 

[Edinburgh Rifles]

Thermal image is just not good enough to sex age and iD deer in anything less than perfect conditions and ranges well inside those you would expect to shoot (IMO…)

The Alpex 4k LRF is for the money an outstanding piece of kit.
I personally feel the image IS better than many of its competitors
I prefer a lower base mag on all devices for the wider field of view, more stable sight picture.
The game changing element on this model are the colour picture retention well past dark enabling you to use it as a stalking scope beyond the gloam when even a market leading glass optic will leave you with shapes and blobs.

The LRF is invaluable, combined with the ballistic calculator and you have something extremely useful.

The ONLY down side to spotting with thermal and shooting with NV is target acquisition in the scope.
Spot a deer in cover in thermal and it looks like its easy to see and try to pick it up in glass or NV.

This can also be construed as a benefit as I suspect there are a lot more targets shot at with thermal that would not be shot at if using glass or NV due to physical obstruction between rifle and target that are not seen in thermal

If its for vermin/foxes etc
Thermal scope every time
Centre mass shot on an obvious fox target quickly acquired in the scope increase success in foxing immeasurably.

Not the same for deer

My advice to anyone considering a low or mid range thermal is to try an alpex 4k lrf first

They are something else

 

[the prowler]

For vermin control, for me anyway it's thermal. Shooting rabbits on banks with any type of cover makes nv ir flare and a proper pain. I've a lovely part to control rabbits and the thermal has been great. For deer that's up to you lot to decide. For fox control. Thermal is still the best for me. I don't shoot in the middle of the Scottish Highlands. Glare from street lights and general built up areas can cause glare. But digital does handle it better than tubed nv.

 

[JTO]

For vermin control, for me anyway it's thermal. Shooting rabbits on banks with any type of cover makes nv ir flare and a proper pain..

= my main reason for abandoning the Digisight for the Thermion.

 

[the prowler]

I go out with my brother in law. Lost count of him saying a rabbit or fox is in a bit of cover and can't see it with it splash back. That's enough for me to ditch nv ir for the last few years. Yes nv ir works well. But around cover it's a right pain. And thermal is totally covert. So no ones knows your even there.

 

[Tim.243]

I'm new to Stalking directory,but not to rifle shooting. I've already learned that there really aren't that many people that know what they're talking about,but you are definitely one that does. I've ruffled a few feathers since joining SD,but everything I've posted is based on time served in the field.

I use a Drone 10 with Ir for foxes also deer up to the last tick of the clock spotted with a hand held thermal.
The last young fallow buck I shot with around 10 mins of legal light I could see the pizzle with the scope but not the Thermal
out around 140 yds. The does were about the same size either side of him but out of season, an August calf Red Stag or Hind
look very much the same with no pizzle at all in a thermal. I passed up on them a few times early season as it is 50/50 or 100% wrong.

 

[GDhunting]

If shooting open ground/ fields etc go NV- better target distinction etc but slower at target acquisition, but I feel more precise and confident using NV but If in cover or and woodland the thermal is the best option. The glare back from IR in grass or trees is horrendous.

Would always recommend thermal for spotting.

 

[ASl sniper.177]

As an Early user of thermal for spotting foxes some 13-15 years ago (a game changer back then) plus using tubed night vision with I.r on the rifle to shoot the foxes. I've looked at thermal rifle scopes for shooting foxes,but have never been happy with the performance when it comes to 100% quarry identification. Plus,the further away they are with thermal scopes the more difficult it is to be 100% confident what you're shooting at is the correct quarry. Maybe 200 yards or under might be ok,but 250-300 yards plus,and more,you can't beat a good tubed or modern digital set-up for 100 % identification of the quarry. Granted,my view is clouded by several incidents over the years when out lamping. One that stands out was picking up what definitely looked like fox eyes out in the middle of a field. On lining up on the supposed fox,I found it was a dog the same size as fox,with a fairly long coat and bushy tail. Shortly after realising it was a dog,a pair of Jean clad legs appeared in the scope and scooped up said dog! If that had been a thermal scope I'm not sure anyone would have been able to tell the difference. There have been other similar incidents over the years,of dogs being where they shouldn't. If your confident with a thermal scope,then good luck too you. There just not for me.

 

[sauer]

Had same year as ago set of eyes in lambing field and didn’t “feel” right …. Walked in and turned out a green wheelie bin in the field with a sheepdog on long chain in field … farmer decided to do it and never mentioned it when said we were going out that night !
That was “this close” to a shot but wasn’ 100% on ID

Paul

 

[baguio]

but everything I've posted is based on time served in the field.

 

[Foxyboy43]

Sooo, in summary - thermal for initial spotting of possible quarry and IR to confirm and shoot. Except in doing so you may then be pointing a loaded rifle at something/one you certainly would not do in daylight. Not so simples…

 

[ASl sniper.177]

Well,going on that,no one would be shooting foxes at night by whatever method you choose. Lamping foxes,quite often you only see eye's in the lamp. So,do you then confirm with a set of binoculars that it is a fox,and then move onto the rifle? I've never been out with anyone that does in 45 years of chasing Charlie. As for pointing a loaded rifle at some unknown object. I always have the safety on AND the bolt in the raised position,only closing the bolt for the shot.