Thermal or night vision

It would surely be reasonable to say that irrespective of the type of sight, none is going to thread a bullet through branches and cover to a target; I've found that if you're among scrub or have nearby vegetation in front of you and/or between you and the target, IR illuminated NV tends to white out the screen owing to reflected light, or that has been my experience; equally, whilst you have a definite advantage in locating your quarry in scrub with thermal, it does not follow that you can shoot it there, any more than if you have seen it in daylight and are trying to shoot using a normal riflescope, for example, as there'll be too much chance that the bullet would blow up or be deflected before it found its intended mark.

The question of whether you intend or want to shoot under those circumstances wasn't really the point I was driving at, it was the basic premise that on balance IR illuminated NV will place you at no more advantage, and indeed some less advantage in such a scenario than when trying to find something with thermal, whether you are spotting or shooting, for sure when using thermal you'll locate a heat source if the cover isn't total, but you'll only gain any additional advantage if the quarry thereafter comes into an opening or area without screening vegetation between you and it.
 
A thermal rifle scope has many benefits over night vision , you do get positive ID with night vision though.

Thermal huge field of view, long detection range and the fastest target acquisition, no extra bulk IR torch to be added, they are also safe by the fact you can see livestock and people in the background, through hedges, very easily when you get the odd random out at night, NV its just too narrow to pick up a lot of the time..

I use thermal scopes for rats, rabbits, foxes... shooting into hedges, woodland were NV gives bounce back. If I'm shooting on stubbles, long grass there is no equal on rabbits, its so quick to get a shot without scanning over every time, waiting on foxes at bait points your on them rapid quick also..you can track so easy..

I use one on most of my rifles, Apex, Trail and Thermions.... for pure pest control they are lethal. In fact I can happily shoot rabbits out to 150+ yds with a HMR and my thermal scope, which I do a lot..(detect 400-450yds)

Night vision is brilliant and will always be the most popular due to the price there at and the positive identification from the visual image they give , but thermal like I say has huge benefits, thousands of thermal rifle scopes have been sold in the UK never mind the rest of the world, so there is a huge demand, for a reason....
Hi .243 Hunter - I definitely agree with speed of target location and speed of spotting with a great FOV with Thermals and some ground we shoot on down south in England ie massive fields- no stock etc I would 99% of the time be happy to use and shoot with a thermal scope but on some of our harsh and extreme Scottish terrain then I'd be less than 50% happy and that would be in good thermal weather conditions but I suppose it's a case of Horses for Courses on where your ground is - Cheers Andy
 
For almost 4 years now I have been spotting with thermal and shooting with thermal but keep an NV spotter (currently a PARD008 with a Sirius XTL) handy for confirming thermal targets I can't positively identify - but to be frank, it's rarely used.
If you both spot and shoot with thermal regularly, your level of competence in quarry recognition improves until you can, in almost all cases, positively identify the quarry.
My issue with spotting with thermal and shooting with NV is that they present 2 completely different sight pictures, and switching back and forth from one to the other hinders achieving the level of competence needed to safely shoot with the thermal.
On the odd occasions I go back to shooting with NV such as the Digex, PARD008 or an 007 add-on, I find the lack of contrast between the target and the background really frustrating compared to the much higher contrast seen in the thermal image.

Cheers

Bruce

Definitely more contrast Bruce , another benefit the last few nights we have had mist and fog and we all know this ends a night using a lamp or nightvision , thermals allow you to carry on , I’ve landed on a farm 40 minutes drive away and the fog rolled in , NV was a white out , but thermal rifle scope on the other gun allowed me to carry on regardless ..
 
Thermal for me has been a game changer, went out last night with the Pulsar XQ38F to check on a permission, which has been a first since the shutdown.
Evening sky was clear, but with a slight mist covering the valley floor, spotted foxes no problem out to 500 yds and confident in their heat signature and manner of movement.
Spent an hour with the spotter and saw several foxes meandering the centre of the fields for earth worms and beatles.
I now know of their wereabouts to take the rifle out on my next outing and can set up my position and wait for charlie.
 
Thermal scope and spotter for me :tiphat: and i can only recall one occasion wher a fox was curled up sleeping and had zero features to identify it, as i got closer it upped and ran off over the hill by which time i could see it clearly was a fox.
On the other hand thermal has allowed me to shoot more foxes than when i was using nv. I cant imagine going back to using nv and having to play about with an illuminator, the narrow field of view and the general faffing around and the fact that some foxes will react to the red glow from the ir.
Each to their own but not for me thanks.

Ps and the fact that mist/fog can send you home.
 
When using digital Nightvision you do have to think about your IR and the one you choose, "white outs" can be avoided and fixed with an IR that has a dimmer on it , there is is benifits to both LED and Laser IR's and you have to choose what is suitable for you, there is also merit in different IR frequencies such as using an 840 nm IR is visible in some instances where a 940nm IR is not but the distance it shines are different, the 840nm will go further (just an example) so yes there is a bit of thought needed when using digital IR

I have had a lot of discussion over the the use of thermal rifle scopes over the years and some are genuinely very good but all the problems are the same, The thermal will pick up an image through even some of the thickest cover but a bullet might not penetrate it, I have had incidents during the day where I have spotted deer in the thermal 2 even three layers of trees in but could not see them through a day scope no matter what mag and that in itself worries me. Thin branches are "bled" out in the image becoming invisible and distance between the target and those branches are also hard to ascertain so could result in a missed or a wounded animal.

Where the thermal does come into its own is where you have long open areas , with ample back stop even on hedgerows at the edge of fields .

Now last year I shot over 3000 rabbits mostly all with Digital NV , plenty of footage doing so although that means nothing, I have also had on test the Thermion and the Trail in fact I had the Trail LRF last summer to test the LRF , now yes they are excellent, but and here is the kicker for me, did it improve the numbers of bunnies shot? no it did not, it did improve the number of bunnies seen when scanning with the rifle, however, I am not a fan of scanning grounds using the rifle I prefer the monocular or binoculars for spotting and scanning, if not anything but for safety sake.

In fact my biggest bug bare on the use of a thermal rifle scope is how it is used by the end user, at around £4000 people think it is the be all and end all. The scope, whether a Thermion, Apex, Trail etc etc, starts to become not just a rifle scope but used as a spotter by the user as well. This in itself is dangerous, with every scan of a field you are pointing a muzzle of a loaded rifle at the same time. No matter how safe you are you are still pointing a loaded rifle at what your looking at, whether that be "two guys walking in the trees" a cow, a sheep or a fox you are still pointing a loaded rifle everywhere you look. This complacency has led to accidents, the user starts to rely on the technology he has paid for, whether intended to or not EVERYTHING you look at is now a target, safe or otherwise. Because of the tech and its price users tend to not use their spotters and just use the scope and in doing so they inadvertently stop using their own eyes and common sense.

You could arguably say you could do the same with digital NV but because of the limitations of not being able to see heavy cover and price you are more likely to invest in a good spotter thermal or otherwise, the added benefit to the spotter is that you can use it for other applications due to not being restricted to being on top of a rifle.

If you can afford both a thermal spotter and a thermal rifle scope you have to bare one thing in mind. In Scotland at the moment it is illegal to shoot deer with ANY scope that provides a digitally enhanced image day or night, so that rules out using thermal and Digital NV scopes for stalking deer in Scotland, where with a spotter like a Helion you can run that totally legally alongside your day rifle set up with the added benefit of a good lamp, scope mounted or otherwise, you can go from day deer stalking to night time foxing without the change of a rifle or having to charge up batteries.

The cost of Thermal is still expensive , with the Thermion starting from £3500 and a spotters starting from £1000 the price does soon add up, and I cannot say that retailers particularly benefit from this premium cost either as many barely make £100 from a sale of one. The sad part is that however you look at it you have to do your research. As many on here have noticed there is a lot of mixed advice on here and sometimes it seems like guys have an unlimited amount of money, and I guess many do, but take it from someone that barely can afford to pay full price for a set of scope rings, it pays to do your research.

Now I will always advise the following, get a thermal spotter, it does not need to be the top end one, an Axion or even a XQ30v lite will do the job you need it to do and trust me the XQ30V lite did me for a couple of years at under £1000 it was a gamechanger for me, get used to using that thermal, get used to identifyinghow different animals move and what they look like at different ranges, use that for spotting. For nightshooting there is plenty of NV set ups that are under £1000 that will do the job for foxing or rabbiting, for years I used the Photons and many like the PARDS I personally think the two best mid market scopes out there just now is the Yukon Sightline or the Sightmark Wraith, but there is plenty to choose from. When buying an IR distance is not everything, if your shooting sub 200yrds or you don't need anything special, any cheap ass zoomable LED IR will sort you for rabbits and foxes between 50 and 150yrds, if your ratting in a shed the smaller the better to avoid washout. But never underestimate the need for a lamp the lamp will still be the most useful and versatile tool you will ever need when working at night and it will always be the safest.

Here is what I use just for example, it might not be suitable for everyone but I shoot a lot of foxes and rabbits, around 40 to 50 foxes and cubs a year (nowhere near the guys down south) and around 3 to 4000 rabbits a year (I seem to have more rabbits than most in pocketed areas) but as you know I also shoot a lot of deer, however I do not use my NV stuff for that but I have a lot of experience in using thermal spotters in the forestry.

I use, Pulsar Ultra N450 , I have used and tested most digital NV and thermal scopes on the market.
Alongside my NV I use a Wicked Light (dont ask me which one right now lol ) 3 in one , it gives me two different IR's and the red light all without changing pills so very very versatile, shot 8 foxes in the red light all over 200yrds, being able to move from the NV on the .22lr or .17hmr to putting on top of the .243 with day scope without changing any setups has been a real bonus.
Spotting using the Pulsar Helion XQ38F, which I upgraded to after haveing the Pulsar XQ30v Lite for a couple of years.

I also keep my lamps in the car, ideal for spotting when the thermal battery is running low and it is genuinely is the ONLY way you can find things at night in the long grass at night as the Thermal rarely picks up anything lying dead or alive in thick long grass.

Anyways hope any of this helps anyone.
 
Thermal scope and spotter for me :tiphat: and i can only recall one occasion wher a fox was curled up sleeping and had zero features to identify it, as i got closer it upped and ran off over the hill by which time i could see it clearly was a fox.
On the other hand thermal has allowed me to shoot more foxes than when i was using nv. I cant imagine going back to using nv and having to play about with an illuminator, the narrow field of view and the general faffing around and the fact that some foxes will react to the red glow from the ir.
Each to their own but not for me thanks.

Ps and the fact that mist/fog can send you home.
I keep a Pard008 LRF/Dark Engine combo in my pocket for those occasions where ID of a Thermal source is tricky, assuming its not misty/foggy of course.
 
When using digital Nightvision you do have to think about your IR and the one you choose, "white outs" can be avoided and fixed with an IR that has a dimmer on it , there is is benifits to both LED and Laser IR's and you have to choose what is suitable for you, there is also merit in different IR frequencies such as using an 840 nm IR is visible in some instances where a 940nm IR is not but the distance it shines are different, the 840nm will go further (just an example) so yes there is a bit of thought needed when using digital IR

I have had a lot of discussion over the the use of thermal rifle scopes over the years and some are genuinely very good but all the problems are the same, The thermal will pick up an image through even some of the thickest cover but a bullet might not penetrate it, I have had incidents during the day where I have spotted deer in the thermal 2 even three layers of trees in but could not see them through a day scope no matter what mag and that in itself worries me. Thin branches are "bled" out in the image becoming invisible and distance between the target and those branches are also hard to ascertain so could result in a missed or a wounded animal.

Where the thermal does come into its own is where you have long open areas , with ample back stop even on hedgerows at the edge of fields .

Now last year I shot over 3000 rabbits mostly all with Digital NV , plenty of footage doing so although that means nothing, I have also had on test the Thermion and the Trail in fact I had the Trail LRF last summer to test the LRF , now yes they are excellent, but and here is the kicker for me, did it improve the numbers of bunnies shot? no it did not, it did improve the number of bunnies seen when scanning with the rifle, however, I am not a fan of scanning grounds using the rifle I prefer the monocular or binoculars for spotting and scanning, if not anything but for safety sake.

In fact my biggest bug bare on the use of a thermal rifle scope is how it is used by the end user, at around £4000 people think it is the be all and end all. The scope, whether a Thermion, Apex, Trail etc etc, starts to become not just a rifle scope but used as a spotter by the user as well. This in itself is dangerous, with every scan of a field you are pointing a muzzle of a loaded rifle at the same time. No matter how safe you are you are still pointing a loaded rifle at what your looking at, whether that be "two guys walking in the trees" a cow, a sheep or a fox you are still pointing a loaded rifle everywhere you look. This complacency has led to accidents, the user starts to rely on the technology he has paid for, whether intended to or not EVERYTHING you look at is now a target, safe or otherwise. Because of the tech and its price users tend to not use their spotters and just use the scope and in doing so they inadvertently stop using their own eyes and common sense.

You could arguably say you could do the same with digital NV but because of the limitations of not being able to see heavy cover and price you are more likely to invest in a good spotter thermal or otherwise, the added benefit to the spotter is that you can use it for other applications due to not being restricted to being on top of a rifle.

If you can afford both a thermal spotter and a thermal rifle scope you have to bare one thing in mind. In Scotland at the moment it is illegal to shoot deer with ANY scope that provides a digitally enhanced image day or night, so that rules out using thermal and Digital NV scopes for stalking deer in Scotland, where with a spotter like a Helion you can run that totally legally alongside your day rifle set up with the added benefit of a good lamp, scope mounted or otherwise, you can go from day deer stalking to night time foxing without the change of a rifle or having to charge up batteries.

The cost of Thermal is still expensive , with the Thermion starting from £3500 and a spotters starting from £1000 the price does soon add up, and I cannot say that retailers particularly benefit from this premium cost either as many barely make £100 from a sale of one. The sad part is that however you look at it you have to do your research. As many on here have noticed there is a lot of mixed advice on here and sometimes it seems like guys have an unlimited amount of money, and I guess many do, but take it from someone that barely can afford to pay full price for a set of scope rings, it pays to do your research.

I dont have an unlimited amount money but i dont drink/smoke/no fancy car but i do work on weekends/extra evenings to earn the extra to be able to afford things.
Now having used digital nv for a number of years i can honestly say that it is not a patch on thermal for me, im not talking 300m shots but my shooting is anything from 25m-150m.
Its also not a case of i spent loads so i have to big it up, it still puts a smile on my face some nights and its an amazing piece of kit even after 3 years of using thermal :tiphat:
 
I dont have an unlimited amount money but i dont drink/smoke/no fancy car but i do work on weekends/extra evenings to earn the extra to be able to afford things.
Now having used digital nv for a number of years i can honestly say that it is not a patch on thermal for me, im not talking 300m shots but my shooting is anything from 25m-150m.
Its also not a case of i spent loads so i have to big it up, it still puts a smile on my face some nights and its an amazing piece of kit even after 3 years of using thermal :tiphat:
Oh no I am not completely putting down the thermal for those who think they can afford it , just emphasising if you had to have a spotter or a scope as budget did not allow both then, the spotter would have to be a must over the scope specially for the price of the scope you could get a spotter and a good NV set up for with thousands as change .

For instance Thermion £3500, but you could get a thermal spotter for £800 and a good NV set up like the Sightline for under £800 and you would be able to do just as much damamge for nearly £2k less.

I did a huge amount of work with a £250 Yukon Photon and a £850 Pulsar Lite XQ30v for a few years making my set up nearly £2700 cheaper its all about whats in your pocket in the end.
 
Thermal scope and spotter for me :tiphat: and i can only recall one occasion wher a fox was curled up sleeping and had zero features to identify it, as i got closer it upped and ran off over the hill by which time i could see it clearly was a fox.
On the other hand thermal has allowed me to shoot more foxes than when i was using nv. I cant imagine going back to using nv and having to play about with an illuminator, the narrow field of view and the general faffing around and the fact that some foxes will react to the red glow from the ir.
Each to their own but not for me thanks.

Ps and the fact that mist/fog can send you home.

Weird, I have very little issue switching between the 2 and FOV has never been an issue for me with NV. I am still on a second model WDV 700, why? Because it just works, marry it with a variable scope, 3-12 or 4-16, SF and compatible glass. Spot with the thermal, drop the rifle on the sticks, generally take the shot with very little faffing. if you know you'll be shooting close in then keep the scope at 3-4x and wind up for the shot if needs be otherwise leave it around 6-7x, keep it focused at around 80-100 yards you generally don't need adjustment of the px.

I'm impressed that you have only ever had one problem with ID with the thermal, I've used one for years and my shooting partner for even longer and if your target is static it is easy to misidentify, 2 hares end to end can easily look like a badger for instance, a muntjac in longer grass at distance the same, a small hare at 150 yards can look like a rabbit closer in. NV wins out for instant ID every day of the week!

There was also the case of the fox shooter who shot the landowner's dog, thinking it was a fox as it was in the chicken shed with a chicken in its mouth, had he been using NV and not a thermal scope he would have known it was a spaniel!! That incident delayed the licencing for thermals for contract shooting in England apparently!
 
Weird, I have very little issue switching between the 2 and FOV has never been an issue for me with NV. I am still on a second model WDV 700, why? Because it just works, marry it with a variable scope, 3-12 or 4-16, SF and compatible glass. Spot with the thermal, drop the rifle on the sticks, generally take the shot with very little faffing. if you know you'll be shooting close in then keep the scope at 3-4x and wind up for the shot if needs be otherwise leave it around 6-7x, keep it focused at around 80-100 yards you generally don't need adjustment of the px.

I'm impressed that you have only ever had one problem with ID with the thermal, I've used one for years and my shooting partner for even longer and if your target is static it is easy to misidentify, 2 hares end to end can easily look like a badger for instance, a muntjac in longer grass at distance the same, a small hare at 150 yards can look like a rabbit closer in. NV wins out for instant ID every day of the week!

There was also the case of the fox shooter who shot the landowner's dog, thinking it was a fox as it was in the chicken shed with a chicken in its mouth, had he been using NV and not a thermal scope he would have known it was a spaniel!! That incident delayed the licencing for thermals for contract shooting in England apparently!
No hares, deer or badgers on my grounds although have spotted many badgers through the thermal and they are unmistakable from a fox😉 or maybe im just a lucky guesser.
Ive also had the wardy and mtc mamba wich is said to be a good combination along with the sunranger, no good for my ground as its a hill farm and there is always mizzle/drizzle lots of tall (white grass) and reeds, spent too much time looking for foxes facing away from me with no eye shine weaving in and out of tall grass and constantly picking the spotter back up to locate mr fox.
Now i spot, rifle up on sticks, huge field of view, pip set at 10.8.
I can be on a fox weaving in and out of grass and one quick call to get him to look and bingo!
Each to their own but it works for me.
 
No hares, deer or badgers on my grounds although have spotted many badgers through the thermal and they are unmistakable from a fox😉 or maybe im just a lucky guesser.
Ive also had the wardy and mtc mamba wich is said to be a good combination along with the sunranger, no good for my ground as its a hill farm and there is always mizzle/drizzle lots of tall (white grass) and reeds, spent too much time looking for foxes facing away from me with no eye shine weaving in and out of tall grass and constantly picking the spotter back up to locate mr fox.
Now i spot, rifle up on sticks, huge field of view, pip set at 10.8.
I can be on a fox weaving in and out of grass and one quick call to get him to look and bingo!
Each to their own but it works for me.
Yeah fair one if all you shoot at night is fox!
 
I am using a thermal spotter, but need the NV /IR to check what the target is. Also have been surprised how in some conditions the NV is better than thermal.
 
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