Tim Pilbeam Copper Bullet Test Data

[NigelM]

Many of you will have seen the video that Tim put together on The Fieldsports Channel on copper bullets. It was in two parts, shooting into water followed by a trial on deer with 15 professional stalkers around the country. The video was light on detail in it’s conclusions because they had a lot to pack into the film so I contacted Tim and asked for more information. He has kindly sent me all the shot data, and whilst he has asked that I do not share it in detail with anyone he has agreed to let me post a summary on SD for those who are interested in knowing more. This isn't my trial, it's Tim's. He has just shared the data to help answer some of the questions.

We have removed all of the neck and head shot deer from the data. The summary focusses only on deer which were chest shot only. These shots varied between lung, heart and shoulder. That left 135 deer shot. Calibres were .243, .264, ,277 and ,308. Chamberings were 243Win, 6.5x55, 6.5CM, 270Win, 308Win, 30-06. Bullet weights varied from 80gr to 170gr.

Of the 135 deer shot there was one failure where the deer ran, was lost and recovered the next day. The bullet had hit the shoulder bone and deflected upwards, away from vital organs. The bullet was a 90gr in 243. Range was 165m, TV was estimated at 2360 fps and TE at 1110 ftLbs. No conclusion was reached on this as a one off occurrence is not sufficient to reach a conclusion. Weird deflections happen with lead bullets from time to time and more testing would need to take place before any conclusions on that bullets effectiveness could reasonably be reached.

134 shots were successful, so 99.3%.

Ranges were from 20m to 267m.

Below is a summary of the data:

Summary
	Sample size	Av weight	Av Range	Av Dist ran	Av TV	Min TV	Av TE	Min TE
		gr	m	m
Barnes LRX	5	127	146	22	2520	2280	1790	1480
Barnes TTSX	31	138	104	22	2660	2520	2350	1720
Federal Power Shok Copper	3	85	106	27	2720	2560	1400	1240
Geko Zero	12	136	107	18	2520	2270	1920	1550
Hornady GMX	10	128	120	21	2570	2370	1760	1620
Lapua Naturalis	2	90	163	N/A	2360	2350	1125	1115
RWS Evo Green	10	93	115	24	2960	2750	1830	1550
Sako Power Head 2	15	120	170	11	2440	2250	1590	1350
Sako Power Head Blade	22	165	108	17	2430	2320	2130	1940
Sellier and Bellot Exergy	3	146	80	20	2700	2450	1900	1750
Sellier and Bellot Exergy Blue	22	157	120	17	2520	2220	2320	1800
Average	135	126	122	19	2580		1830
By Bullet weight
	Sample size		Av Range	Av Dist ran
Up to 99gr	17		119	23
100gr to 119gr	2		165	25
120gr to 139gr	53		133	18
140gr to 159gr	21		87	20
Over 160gr	42		115	17
By Range
	Sample size		Av Weight	Av Dist ran
Up to 100m	41		139	17
100m to 149m	55		131	22
150m to 199m	23		125	15
Over 200m	11		128	23

From a big picture point of view the conclusion was that at normal stalking ranges copper bullets work. It has however thrown up lots of questions on what the limitations of copper bullets are. How does their design alter their effectiveness? What is the max range/min TV of each design? Does a heavier bullet in a larger calibre with more energy expand and a lower TV than a light small calibre bullet?

Tim is planning another part to the test designed to help answer those questions. It will involve shooting all the bullets into water from 200m where we know they all work on deer to 500m, measuring expansion at each 100m. Combining this measured data with calculated terminal velocity and energy should start to give answers.

In the mean time the deer culling trial continues with more data coming in from the team so the 135 in the trial so far will grow and hopefully those bullets where we have a very low number of samples should get to a level where the data becomes more reliable.

It is work in progress rather than finished work, but in time we will hopefully learn more about the various copper offerings.

 

[CarlW]

This is helpful, Nigel.
Kind regards,
Carl

 

[paul o']

Both muntys i have so far had fell to the shot . fox 130 .270 One Hart/lung other neck with explosive results in both . bullets passed with no recovery .

 

[Yorric]

The tests are most welcome and I'm looking forward to further results.
I would like to see beast weight included in the study to see if quary size is significant in bullet selection.
Ian

 

[User00040]

A list of factory ammo prices per box of 20 would also be beneficial

 

[25 Sharps]

A list of factory ammo prices per box of 20 would also be beneficial

So would a meaningful test of non lead vermin and Varmint bullets and calibres.

We all know non lead isn’t an issue for deer at standard stalking ranges.

I’d be interested to know how the distance run was accurately measured and why Tim wouldn’t allow the full data be published. Average / mean data only tells so much

 

[Deermanagement]

As per my reply to a post a couple of weeks ago, I have no experience with non-lead, however a colleague has shot a few Sika with me and stopped them as expected when shoulders were pinned. However, a couple of weeks ago he shot a Roe buck whilst stalking the same permission as me and had to give me a call after 1/2 hour searching having lost the blood trail he followed for 100 yds. He assures me it was 140yds, broadside when he shot it with a 120g TTSX from a 6.5mm.

I found the buck after a long search, 440yds from where it was shot, still well alive and capable of making off had it seen me. The copper bullet had entered at the rear of the right shoulder, breaking it in the process and exited the chest in front of the same shoulder. If I had been stood with him and witnessed the beast's angle and resulting damage, there is no way I would have used these bullets. If the beast was fully broadside, the bullet's exit angle must have been a ridiculous figure, something like 60 degrees from the original flight path.

I did post with a couple of frames from video that showed a 130g Accubond deflect around 10 to 15 degrees after exiting a young sika stag at just over a 100yds, with the witness splash on the sloping field behind the animal. That was bad enough to deem all level field shots unsafe but the TTSX exit angle would make most back stops unreliable.

I'm hoping that RWS will sell the evo green bullets as they look the best option to me at the moment but whatever I have to use in the future will mean a reconsideration of placement and the deliberate damage to the carcass shoulders I think will be necessary. I would prefer to spoil an awful lot of good venison to save having to chase lost and wounded deer on a regular basis.

If this deer was part of the survey it would have spoiled the figures in a spectacular way.

 

[Ronin]

Thanks for posting this Nigel and also thanks to Mr P for allowing the data to be released

 

[SussexSteve]

5 of the 6 deer species were shot in the test along with fox. Shot placement doesn’t need to be any different. There are various types of construction with the copper and it’s picking the right one. I was quite happy using lead but changed as I shoot high numbers and it’s helped shift carcasses even without selling any to the game stealers this season. Next season I will have no choice but to sell to them and they have already said they want copper used!

 

[75]

That was bad enough to deem all level field shots unsafe but the TTSX exit angle would make most back stops unreliable.

I've said it before and I'll say it again - there's no shot out there that you should take with a lead bullet that you couldn't with a non-lead round.

A solid backstop is just that and I've had plenty of examples of lead bullets doing funny things and taking more than a 60 degree turn. I took a low neck shot on a broadside muntjac at 130 yards and the bullet exited the same side haunch - 120gn Nosler BT out of a 260Rem. Various other examples in 243 and several 6.5mm chamberings. Not had anything similar with copper yet, but only been using it a couple of years and not taken as many beasts.

Bullets do unpredictable things. It doesn't matter what they are made of.

 

[fallowfellow]

As per my reply to a post a couple of weeks ago, I have no experience with non-lead, however a colleague has shot a few Sika with me and stopped them as expected when shoulders were pinned. However, a couple of weeks ago he shot a Roe buck whilst stalking the same permission as me and had to give me a call after 1/2 hour searching having lost the blood trail he followed for 100 yds. He assures me it was 140yds, broadside when he shot it with a 120g TTSX from a 6.5mm.

I found the buck after a long search, 440yds from where it was shot, still well alive and capable of making off had it seen me. The copper bullet had entered at the rear of the right shoulder, breaking it in the process and exited the chest in front of the same shoulder. If I had been stood with him and witnessed the beast's angle and resulting damage, there is no way I would have used these bullets. If the beast was fully broadside, the bullet's exit angle must have been a ridiculous figure, something like 60 degrees from the original flight path.

I did post with a couple of frames from video that showed a 130g Accubond deflect around 10 to 15 degrees after exiting a young sika stag at just over a 100yds, with the witness splash on the sloping field behind the animal. That was bad enough to deem all level field shots unsafe but the TTSX exit angle would make most back stops unreliable.

I'm hoping that RWS will sell the evo green bullets as they look the best option to me at the moment but whatever I have to use in the future will mean a reconsideration of placement and the deliberate damage to the carcass shoulders I think will be necessary. I would prefer to spoil an awful lot of good venison to save having to chase lost and wounded deer on a regular basis.

If this deer was part of the survey it would have spoiled the figures in a spectacular way.

I haven’t shot any deer with copper yet.

Twice I have had lead bullets do strange changes of direction. One a neck shot roe buck, bullet travelled down to shoulder. Another chest shot and bullet travelled backwards and broke the hind leg on the same side as entry. Both .243 both sub 60yds so I wondered if it might relate to still travelling with speed. Both deer did drop on the spot.

I suppose projectiles at high velocity deflect occasionally. Marginal backstops aren’t worth it.

Still, it’s good to register these reports in case trends emerge.

I agree that full data should be published and hopefully it will be.

 

[paulbshooting]

only using copper for past 18 months in 308. Out culling min 4 times a week shot muntjac, roe and mainly fallow. The 130g TTSX works, all homeloads. Existing brass, primers and powder so only cost to change was heads and some time to test. Clean kills if shot placed right. Only tend to chest shoot and decent blood trials if they run which isn't often. Second one taken out of group the other morning ran into OSR. Great blood and easy find, was heart shot and ran on adrenaline. All my deer are processed by me and sold to venison customers. Meat loss minimal and great to offer non toxic shot game to customers.

 

[User00033]

I've said it before and I'll say it again - there's no shot out there that you should take with a lead bullet that you couldn't with a non-lead round.

Please define “should”.

 

[Stalker62]

.. OSR...

OSR?

 

[Acm]

OSR?

Oil seed rape

 

[Acm]

Please define “should”.

verb

1. 1.
   used to indicate obligation, duty, or correctness, typically when criticizing someone's actions.
   "he should have been careful"
   • 2.
     used to indicate what is probable.
     "£348 m should be enough to buy him out"

 

[NigelM]

No handbags please Gentlemen. Let's try to keep it on topic.

 

[YoungGun]

only using copper for past 18 months in 308. Out culling min 4 times a week shot muntjac, roe and mainly fallow. The 130g TTSX works, all homeloads. Existing brass, primers and powder so only cost to change was heads and some time to test. Clean kills if shot placed right. Only tend to chest shoot and decent blood trials if they run which isn't often. Second one taken out of group the other morning ran into OSR. Great blood and easy find, was heart shot and ran on adrenaline. All my deer are processed by me and sold to venison customers. Meat loss minimal and great to offer non toxic shot game to customers.

Been using the same bullet in 30-06 for about 2 year. Used on red, fallow, roe and Muntjac averaging 40 deer a year (I know not a massive sample size) haven't had any more runners than normal (and theses were normally down to the idiot behind the trigger).

Max range was probably about 230 yards on hinds, most shots between 50-150. I would consider these ranges "normal" when shooting in the UK. Muzzle velocity is circa 3100 FPS.

 

[Loler UK]

Does anyone have a link to the FULL data set? not the averages?

Knowing how many were head & neck shot in this study I'm a tad concerned that if these are mean averages as opposed to median we are missing the full picture.

 

[Alantoo]

Does anyone have a link to the FULL data set? not the averages?

Knowing how many were head & neck shot in this study I'm a tad concerned that if these are mean averages as opposed to median we are missing the full picture.

Reread the OP

We have removed all of the neck and head shot deer from the data. The summary focusses only on deer which were chest shot only.

Though I agree full information would be great and remove any conjecture. I am surprised that the average running distance was so high even for chest shot only.

My impression of using them is much the same as with the lead core, with only a few that did not drop virtually on the spot, and only a couple going over the 20 metre average stated above. But my impression includes those I neck shot.

Alan