Trading Standards/Consumer Rights Advice

[Bigboab29]

Hey chaps,

Just looking for a bit of advice on the above. My wee rav4 finally gave up the ghost after 3 years of faultless service (only cost £1000) so i decided on december 2018 to treat myself to something a bit better so i decided on a mitsibushi outlander for 5k, bought it from a second hand, rac approved, good garage scheme approved second hand dealer thinking it would be safer than buying privatley. How wrong was i!!! I wont bother you with the details but the vehicle has been back to the garage on 18 seperate occassions now (in 6 months), varying from trim falling off, injectors being faulty, a catastrophic turbo failure, a catastrophic engine failure which resulted in a cost to me of £1390 as the rac warrnaty i was sold with the car wasnt worth the paper its printed on. Ive owned the car for 7 month and had the pleasure of driving it for 2 of those months at most, its either been sitting in the garage waiting to be repaired (which he seemed in no rush to do) or it sat on my drive waiting for him to collect it. So it has broke down again and he has collected it, no idea what the problem is, no idea how long itll take to sort, no replacement car available and basically not interested so i spoke to trading standards and sent him a letter detailing all the issues ive had with the car and requested a refund, he has 14 days to reply, 10 days have passed and still nothing!!!

Just wondering if anyone has been through this? any tips? any idea how long it could take to settle? at present im over 6k out of pocket and still have no car!!!!

 

[jer]

Yes I have found trading standards are pretty good when it comes to helping to sort out such issues, if I were you I would be contacting citizens advice also its all free and get as much help/advice as possible. I was made aware some years ago that there is/was a term "not fit for purpose" that can be used to return the goods and get a refund and I would suggest that the car you bought certainly meets that criteria. Trading standards should steer you through things if you don't get a proper response though and most reputable traders don't want issues with TS. Good luck with it.

 

[Bigboab29]

Yes I have found trading standards are pretty good when it comes to helping to sort out such issues, if I were you I would be contacting citizens advice also its all free and get as much help/advice as possible. I was made aware some years ago that there is/was a term "not fit for purpose" that can be used to return the goods and get a refund and I would suggest that the car you bought certainly meets that criteria. Trading standards should steer you through things if you don't get a proper response though and most reputable traders don't want issues with TS. Good luck with it.

Thanks Jer. Pretty sure he wont want trading standards involved, the car was suppose to have had a so many point rac check before the sale which it obviously hadnt as lots of these faults would have shown up with simple checks. He also asked for so much payment by card and so much in cash which he asked for in 'big notes' im guessing that was goig straight in his pocket so again this wont look good if trading standars get involved but even with these points in my favour he is still dragging it out rather than just get it sorted!!

 

[Andyquadra]

Maybe report it to the RAC as well?

 

[Bigboab29]

Maybe report it to the RAC as well?

I'm living in hope that he is a decent fella (wishful thinking) and settles it without causing me any further stress and that will be the end of it but if he wants to go the long way i'll be sure to leave him plenty good reviews everywhere i can, leave feedback all over facebook, contact the rac and let them know how their accredited garages conduct themselves, contact the good garage scheme and last but not least the tax man lol

 

[jer]

I wouldn't forget the option of standing outside his workshop with a large sign warning potential customers of your experience, as long as it's truthful and you are on public land it's all good and nothing he can do about it.

 

[venator cervus]

Consumer Rights Act 2015: If a defect is found once the 30 days have passed, but within six months, you are entitled to request a repair, replacement or refund free of charge. The law assumes that the fault was there at the time of delivery, unless the seller can prove otherwise. Where this right is exercised, dealers only have one chance at repair or replacement. If they fail to repair or replace the car, you are entitled to a full or partial refund.
Hope this helps.

 

[CarlW]

I'm living in hope that he is a decent fella

Decent fellas rarely end up being successful second-hand car salesmen...

 

[Pedro]

I suspect that the law regarding this isn't the main issue. The problem will be getting the seller to comply with it. You could, failing any cooperation on his part go down the civil court route, get a judgement and he could still ignore everything. You could then instruct bailiffs and with any luck, eventually they will prise the money from him. But that's a lot of faff. Hopefully he can be made to see the sense of seeing you right before you go down that long and tortuous route.

 

[willowbank]

Thanks Jer. Pretty sure he wont want trading standards involved, the car was suppose to have had a so many point rac check before the sale which it obviously hadnt as lots of these faults would have shown up with simple checks. He also asked for so much payment by card and so much in cash which he asked for in 'big notes' im guessing that was goig straight in his pocket so again this wont look good if trading standars get involved but even with these points in my favour he is still dragging it out rather than just get it sorted!!

Hi if you paid more than £100 on a credit card, my understanding is that you would have a claim under what is known as a section 75, worth looking into?
From the sound of it Trading Standards should take this up for you, good luck.

Willowbank

 

[Chanty Wrassler]

I have every sympathy for your situation, but from the price you paid I'm estimating the car's 10 years old / 100,000 miles, and while £5k is a fair old sum, it is only about 20% of that car's new price. In other words, the best 80% of its worth has been used up already. I'm not defending (or criticising) the trader, but cars at that stage of their life-cycle can seem perfectly serviceable and OK, then blow up a few weeks later. Or go on to give years of good service. It's anybody's guess which.

You can either dig deep for a new / nearly new car, or go to the bottom end of the market (like your Rav4) where if it all goes pear-shaped your fingers are not too badly burned. Anything in between is an expensive gamble.

I do hope you get some sort of result.

 

[The Singing Stalker]

I have every sympathy for your situation, but from the price you paid I'm estimating the car's 10 years old / 100,000 miles, and while £5k is a fair old sum, it is only about 20% of that car's new price. In other words, the best 80% of its worth has been used up already. I'm not defending (or criticising) the trader, but cars at that stage of their life-cycle can seem perfectly serviceable and OK, then blow up a few weeks later. Or go on to give years of good service. It's anybody's guess which.

You can either dig deep for a new / nearly new car, or go to the bottom end of the market (like your Rav4) where if it all goes pear-shaped your fingers are not too badly burned. Anything in between is an expensive gamble.

I do hope you get some sort of result.

Based on your comments I better be selling my 18 year old trooper, the aircon needs regassing. In this day and age 10 years old and 100,000 miles is not a problem with a well looked after motor. my last truck was 15 years old with 150,000 thousand miles. So I don't think he is being unreasonable.

 

[Pedro]

Whatever the age, as a trader if you sell a road vehicle then it has to be fit for purpose and if it doesn't work as a means of transport then it patently isn't.

 

[Chanty Wrassler]

Whatever the age, as a trader if you sell a road vehicle then it has to be fit for purpose and if it doesn't work as a means of transport then it patently isn't.

From The Sale of Goods Act :

"(2A)For the purposes of this Act, goods are of satisfactory quality if they meet the standard that a reasonable person would regard as satisfactory, taking account of any description of the goods, the price (if relevant) and all the other relevant circumstances."

The price paid is what gives the seller wriggle room. Provided that the vehicle was legally roadworthy at the time of sale, a price of 20% of the new price suggests that you can't rely on too much from the vehicle.

 

[Chanty Wrassler]

Based on your comments I better be selling my 18 year old trooper, the aircon needs regassing.

That's not what I'm suggesting, I've kept even older vehicles going. Keep your Trooper going as long as it doesn't cost too much to fix, and ignore non-essentials. By all means buy a vehicle that age, at the low-ish price you can get it for.

In this day and age 10 years old and 100,000 miles is not a problem with a well looked after motor. my last truck was 15 years old with 150,000 thousand miles. So I don't think he is being unreasonable.

I think we'll need to agree to disagree on that, many vehicles will go on to give lots of useful service, many will quickly become money-pits, it is the luck of the draw I'm afraid.

 

[Bigboab29]

just for the record so you guys can see my situation i will post a small part of the ts letter detailing the problem, this isnt just wear and tear on a 10 year old 80k mile car, the car was sold to me as a fit for purpose reliable car wich it is not and never has been from the day i got it.

heres a list of the faults, theres that many i may have forgot a few, and yes some of them are trivial matters but ever one i had to take time out my day and be without a car and over 6k out while the car went back to garage over and over again with no urgency to fix it as it was coming out his pocket and not a paying customers.

1. Engine management light on during test drive.
2. Engine management light came back on whilst sitting on xxxxx forecourt, returned to xxxxx with fault codes p4087 and p4088, the engine management light was off on collection with no codes shown, no part replaced just turned off by computer.
3. Trim was missing from window on purchase, this was fitted when the part arrived at xxxxx.
4. New trim came loose after a day on motorway at 70mph, returned to xxxxx to be refitted.
5. New trim came loose again and was re attached with silicone at xxxxx as they broke the clips.
6. Grinding noise from front of car, took back to xxxxx and it was a drop link, this was replaced.
7. Grinding noise appeared from the front of car again, took back to xxxxx and the new drop link was faulty which was replaced.
8. Grinding noise appeared from front of car again, took back to xxxxx and the new drop link was not tightened up correctly, this has now been resolved.
9. Intermittent fault when starting – car won’t start – calls over fast – engine management light comes on with codes p4087 and p4088 then clears after 10 minutes. Due to this being an intermittent fault I was told by xxxxx I would have to get the car down with the fault shown in order to locate the problem. This problem is still reoccurring.
10. Car developed a shudder at low revs, car was returned to xxxxx and terracleaned which did not resolve the issue.
11. Car was taken back to xxxxx and an injector was replaced under warranty which did not resolve the issue.
12. Car was taken back to xxxxx and another injector was replaced under warranty and the shuddering was reduced.
13. Car suffered a catastrophic engine failure on 21st March, Con rod failure which was not covered by the supplied warranty, after discussions with xxxxx xx sourced a replacement engine, a new timing belt and battery was also fitted during this time with a further cost to myself of £1,380. The car was returned to me on the 8th May and ran ok for two days.
14. ACS would not work after new engine was fitted, xxxxx tried new fuse and this did not rectify the problem, this issue is not resolved.
15. Car was recovered by xxxxx after suffering another failure on 11th May this time the new timing belt had come off the new engine due to a failure. This was replaced and returned on the 23rd May.
16. Car was taken to xxxxx on 29th May due to shuddering and excessive black smoke when accelerating. This was the rocker arm cover, possibly damaged due to timing belt coming off previously. Car was returned on Monday 10th June still shuddering although not as bad.
17. Car recovered by xxxxx on Wednesday 19th June after suffering another failure on Sunday 16th June. Car lurching and shuddering then reved up to 4500 rpm on its own, this issue hasn’t been resolved and the vehicle is still in xxxxx at present, turbo has been sent to specialist to be examined, turbo returned to xxxxx, still trying to find the issue with no idea of a timeframe for returning the vehicle to myself.
18. Due to all the above issues, the stress caused by these issues and the costs I have incurred to travel by public transport from xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx and back at a cost of £13 per day for weeks at a time whilst the above car has been on my driveway not driveable or it has been in xxxxx being repaired or waiting to be repaired. I have been very understanding and gave xxxxx every opportunity to rectify the problems but I now feel I have no option but to return the car for a refund as I have lost all faith in the vehicle and deem it not fit for purpose.

Due to all these issues in a 6 month period i dont think i am being unreasonable saying the car is not and never has been fit for purpose and buying from a 'reputible dealer' i would not expect these issues with a 5k car!!

 

[User00003]

just for the record so you guys can see my situation i will post a small part of the ts letter detailing the problem, this isnt just wear and tear on a 10 year old 80k mile car, the car was sold to me as a fit for purpose reliable car wich it is not and never has been from the day i got it.

heres a list of the faults, theres that many i may have forgot a few, and yes some of them are trivial matters but ever one i had to take time out my day and be without a car and over 6k out while the car went back to garage over and over again with no urgency to fix it as it was coming out his pocket and not a paying customers.

1. Engine management light on during test drive.
2. Engine management light came back on whilst sitting on xxxxx forecourt, returned to xxxxx with fault codes p4087 and p4088, the engine management light was off on collection with no codes shown, no part replaced just turned off by computer.
3. Trim was missing from window on purchase, this was fitted when the part arrived at xxxxx.
4. New trim came loose after a day on motorway at 70mph, returned to xxxxx to be refitted.
5. New trim came loose again and was re attached with silicone at xxxxx as they broke the clips.
6. Grinding noise from front of car, took back to xxxxx and it was a drop link, this was replaced.
7. Grinding noise appeared from the front of car again, took back to xxxxx and the new drop link was faulty which was replaced.
8. Grinding noise appeared from front of car again, took back to xxxxx and the new drop link was not tightened up correctly, this has now been resolved.
9. Intermittent fault when starting – car won’t start – calls over fast – engine management light comes on with codes p4087 and p4088 then clears after 10 minutes. Due to this being an intermittent fault I was told by xxxxx I would have to get the car down with the fault shown in order to locate the problem. This problem is still reoccurring.
10. Car developed a shudder at low revs, car was returned to xxxxx and terracleaned which did not resolve the issue.
11. Car was taken back to xxxxx and an injector was replaced under warranty which did not resolve the issue.
12. Car was taken back to xxxxx and another injector was replaced under warranty and the shuddering was reduced.
13. Car suffered a catastrophic engine failure on 21st March, Con rod failure which was not covered by the supplied warranty, after discussions with xxxxx xx sourced a replacement engine, a new timing belt and battery was also fitted during this time with a further cost to myself of £1,380. The car was returned to me on the 8th May and ran ok for two days.
14. ACS would not work after new engine was fitted, xxxxx tried new fuse and this did not rectify the problem, this issue is not resolved.
15. Car was recovered by xxxxx after suffering another failure on 11th May this time the new timing belt had come off the new engine due to a failure. This was replaced and returned on the 23rd May.
16. Car was taken to xxxxx on 29th May due to shuddering and excessive black smoke when accelerating. This was the rocker arm cover, possibly damaged due to timing belt coming off previously. Car was returned on Monday 10th June still shuddering although not as bad.
17. Car recovered by xxxxx on Wednesday 19th June after suffering another failure on Sunday 16th June. Car lurching and shuddering then reved up to 4500 rpm on its own, this issue hasn’t been resolved and the vehicle is still in xxxxx at present, turbo has been sent to specialist to be examined, turbo returned to xxxxx, still trying to find the issue with no idea of a timeframe for returning the vehicle to myself.
18. Due to all the above issues, the stress caused by these issues and the costs I have incurred to travel by public transport from xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx and back at a cost of £13 per day for weeks at a time whilst the above car has been on my driveway not driveable or it has been in xxxxx being repaired or waiting to be repaired. I have been very understanding and gave xxxxx every opportunity to rectify the problems but I now feel I have no option but to return the car for a refund as I have lost all faith in the vehicle and deem it not fit for purpose.

Due to all these issues in a 6 month period i dont think i am being unreasonable saying the car is not and never has been fit for purpose and buying from a 'reputible dealer' i would not expect these issues with a 5k car!!

no that's pretty bad, I recently bought a £6k volvo v50 that was 6 years old; looks perfect and drives like new, never a problem.

If I bought a range rover for £5K, I'd expect it would break down within 3 minutes of leaving the forecourt, if it ever got off the forecourt.

If I bought a £5K pickup like a hilux or ranger, I'd expect that it would run reasonably trouble free for a year,,then probably need regular monthly repairs for a couple more before scrapping.

Car dealers probably don't really know existing issues with most cars they P/E or buy at auction, they just top them up with fluids, have them valeted, spray the tyres and trim and make them look nice, usually a trip to halfords to buy 5 cans of silver wheel paint too. However, they do have obligations in terms of what they sell you, so they need to offer you a refund and compensation or you should really look to take legal action IMHO.

I don't think they could foresee drop link breaking, con rod failing leading to new engine, timing belt and battery, that's just bad luck of buying used..could have happened quickly, could have not happened for years...if it was bought with trim missing, that's probably not their fault either if it was sold as seen...

You should push for a compensation or at least partial refund, that's only fair and your right.

I recently bought an relatively new Hilux, and only once I got it did the small things start to appear.
drum brakes spray painted silver to hide wear and rust, same with brake calibres
spray painted wheels and black trim - once I washed it with the powersprayer all the paint chipped off to show the old finish, rust, etc. etc.
some of the new tyres promised were just flipped to show the other side which was hardly worn, but inside edges worn hard
car was delivered with speed limiter, not advertised
rear door not aligned with one side of the bodywork
AC not working
One brake squeeking due to sticking calibre
misaligned steering wheel
etc. etc.

I took it up with them of course, didn't want to return it as it was an 800 mile delivery to me and a flight in between!...ended up with £600 compensation even though I asked for £1,200. I've had most of the work done locally here for little money, but they definitely screwed me for a good couple grand.

That was Alan Kerr in Devon FWIW - shame on you.


in general, used car dealers are a pretty scummy bunch, they'll screw you and the next guy if they can.

 

[Bigboab29]

It was also suppose to have had a 150 point rac check before hand, i have the 'certificate' of this being completed. Speaking to a third party independant mechanic a lot of this should have been picked up on the check so i dont know wether the check has been done and hes just ignored the faults or wether hes just bought it from auction and sold it on saying the check had been done when it hadnt even been looked at.

I couldve bought the exact same car privatley for £3000 but i opted for the 'peace of mind' offered from buying it from a 'reputable dealer' and paid £2000 over the odds so yes i do expect the car to be road worthy and breakdown free and if it does break down (engine + turbo) i would expect them to sort it under the warranty he sold me. Apparently the engine wasnt covered, the con rod smashed the block from the inside and the con rods are covered but the conrod wasnt the problem it was the bolt the holds it on (not the gudeon clip as thats covered) apparently it was another holding bolt that isnt covered and it ended up costing me £1380 3 months after purchase. Just a pure lot off pish from beginning to end and im taking it all the way, he knows hes guilty as he offered me to exchange it for anything in his courtyard up to 5k but after the way i have been treated and the timescale he takes to do anything i just want a refund to go to arnold clark and by something new!!

 

[Woodsmoke]

he knows hes guilty as he offered me to exchange it for anything in his courtyard up to 5k

I'd be inclined to take him up on this. BUT, with the proviso that the vehicle is checked over at his cost by a mechanic of your choosing?

Those warranties are a pile of sh1te. My Shogun was supposedly covered by a comprehensive warranty, but when the ABS and automatic gearbox gave trouble surprise surprise, the affected individual components weren't covered. I'll never trust any dealer who tries to offer me one again