Tried lead free

New Avon Arms
Pontfathew said:
No need to be like that, I'd argue I'm quite good at statistics, but I take your point regarding statistics being able to be manipulated. I hope they release a report on the data they've collated so it can be delved into a bit more.

It would've be ideal to have a control group of lead ammunition to prove it against, but I do think that the effort they've gone to is very impressive.

I think the main take away from the video is everybody involved seemed very convinced that non toxic was effective, and they did not see swapping to non toxic as a detrement to their profession.

Ref FSC kit review - I take your point, but in this example they were pitting competitors against eachother so the situation is different. They did a review of non toxic shotgun catridges a while back and they moaned about one particular catridge kicking like a mule, so not always positive.
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Wasn’t meant to ‘be like that’ apologies if it came across.

was it me or did they not all seem to favour the Sako options?

The main argument against lead is it will be less humane fo a marginal shot or at range where less expansion will occur. Without knowing all of the data contained within that spread sheet it is impossible to draw any conclusion.

I personally didn’t like the way they kept just saying ‘they all died/dropped’. Of course they did, anything shot with a deer legal calibre anywhere in the neck, head or chest and as far back as the liver is going to drop. The question has to be how rapidly?

The acid test for a humane kill seems to be 5 minutes. That is an absolute age based on animals i shoot!

PS as most of them were listed as deer managers how do you know it is their profession?
 
25 Sharps said:
Wasn’t meant to ‘be like that’ apologies if it came across.

was it me or did they not all seem to favour the Sako options?

The main argument against lead is it will be less humane fo a marginal shot or at range where less expansion will occur. Without knowing all of the data contained within that spread sheet it is impossible to draw any conclusion.

I personally didn’t like the way they kept just saying ‘they all died/dropped’. Of course they did, anything shot with a deer legal calibre anywhere in the neck, head or chest and as far back as the liver is going to drop. The question has to be how rapidly?

The acid test for a humane kill seems to be 5 minutes. That is an absolute age based on animals i shoot!
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No problem.

They did say they like the Sako, perhaps that was genuine feedback as they are a quality manufacturer, or perhaps it's influenced be the fact Sako sponsor Childerley on the show. Probably a bit of both. I don't know if they'd want to be seen pushing something thats actually not fit for purpose though.

Ref humane kills, I'd be tearing my hair out (and probably feel terrible and put off for a while) if I shot a deer and it took five minutes to die. I'd be disappointed if their definition of "deer crumpling" is actually deer dying with five minutes, but I doubt thats the case.
 
Pontfathew said:
No problem.

They did say they like the Sako, perhaps that was genuine feedback as they are a quality manufacturer, or perhaps it's influenced be the fact Sako sponsor Childerley on the show. Probably a bit of both. I don't know if they'd want to be seen pushing something thats actually not fit for purpose though.

Ref humane kills, I'd be tearing my hair out (and probably feel terrible and put off for a while) if I shot a deer and it took five minutes to die. I'd be disappointed if their definition of "deer crumpling" is actually deer dying with five minutes, but I doubt thats the case.
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No, probably not but we don’t know and that’s my point.
 
I get that copper works but the test only goes to 270m fine for normal stalking but if you stretch it a bit to say 350m I worry it will fail to expand and if conditions are right I do like the odd medium range deer... Shame to see that go
 
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@25 Sharps & @Pontfathew: you both make some good points. The average running distance of 18 metres is a worry when it actually equates to 53 metres which is a long way when clearly some ran further and some a lot further. until they do exactly the same test using lead it doesn't really tell us much at all!

​

 
25 Sharps said:
I would love to see the data!
The 2/3rds of the animals that were head or neck shot need to be discounted for a start.

Or is that just going to be the new norm with copper?
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I’ve never had much confidence with neck shot deer with copper the bullet doesn’t seem to expand as well in the narrow neck of a roe. Unless it hits the bone. They die if bone missed from blood loss.. I try to avoid neck shots with copper but I’m sure many have more experience than me
 
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baguio said:
@25 Sharps & @Pontfathew: you both make some good points. The average running distance of 18 metres is a worry when it actually equates to 53 metres which is a long way when clearly some ran further and some a lot further. until they do exactly the same test using lead it doesn't really tell us much at all!

​

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Or post the actual results rather than just given snippets to suit their agenda
 
25 Sharps said:
I would love to see the data!
The 2/3rds of the animals that were head or neck shot need to be discounted for a start.

Or is that just going to be the new norm with copper?
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2/3 of 350 odd deer is still over 100 deer. That is a pretty acceptable sample size and would be valid for say an initial clinical trial.
 
Heym SR20 said:
2/3 of 350 odd deer is still over 100 deer. That is a pretty acceptable sample size and would be valid for say an initial clinical trial.
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I can assure you that the last 100 deer that I shot with partitions didn't run an average of 53m though and even if I totally take munties out of the sample they still didn't average that far or anywhere near to it. Some did for sure but not average!
 
I must say it all points in the right direction for copper in any case (although I am convinced it's fine, and not on this video alone).

Next step is to get some for myself and try it out, put my money where my mouth is so to speak.

Happy to provide feedback on how I get on.
 
Utectok said:
I’ve never had much confidence with neck shot deer with copper the bullet doesn’t seem to expand as well in the narrow neck of a roe. Unless it hits the bone. They die if bone missed from blood loss.. I try to avoid neck shots with copper but I’m sure many have more experience than me
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If you are neck shooting with lead and "miss the bone" the deer won't die either. That's got nothing to do with what your bullet is made out of.
 
StephenToast said:
If you are neck shooting with lead and "miss the bone" the deer won't die either. That's got nothing to do with what your bullet is made out of.
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Of course it will
Unless you clip it or choose a poorly place low neck, a solid non bone strike in the upper neck will kill often with blood.
The sheer force of a bullet so close to the brain itself kills.
Like a metal bar to the back of the head will!
 
Utectok said:
I get that copper works but the test only goes to 270m fine for normal stalking but if you stretch it a bit to say 350m I worry it will fail to expand and if conditions are right I do like the odd medium range deer... Shame to see that go
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Then change your shot placement
A high shoulder/Hilar shot will drop them at range with most bullets
Running 136gr in 308 at 2950fps and they work just fine with the right shot placement
 
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