Tried lead free

[NigelM]

7mm 120g TTSX bullet at 3250fps for the longest shots and 308 130g TTSX out to 220m

Not a little 7mm I would guess. 7mmRemMag? I was sending 120TTSX at 3350fps from the 280ai and had similar confidence in them out to 250m. Very impressive combination. But I'm not convinced our collective FLO's would welcome everyone asking for 7RM's rather that 6.5x55's as a result of the lead ban

I think the video did no more than prove what many of us already know, copper works well inside 250m if it's driven fast enough. Unfortunately there was no real evidence presented on the heavy for calibre bullets - one lady said they worked very well but we got no information on her average shot distance and so her terminal velocity. She could have shot everything inside 100m for all we know.

They said that the Sako was everyones favourite, but why? Where's the evidence to show it was better than anything else? I would expect to be shown evidence of less distance run at longer ranges than the others to reach that conclusion.

I have written to Tim Pilbeam and asked if he would share the raw data he has. If he's willing to do so we might get some real answers, but as only about 130 of the 350 were body shot, and that was over 13 different cartridges, there will be those who say the results are not statistically relevant.

 

[Selous]

If you are neck shooting with lead and "miss the bone" the deer won't die either. That's got nothing to do with what your bullet is made out of.

Not entirely true, in the neck there are a number of vital structures including the carotid arteries and jugular veins. If you disrupt both carotid then the blood gets no oxygen so the deer is unconscious within seconds. Always better to hit bone though

 

[JTO]

Exactly. I gave up reading the drivel in the original post before I got halfway through it.

Tim

Me also. My lungs ran out of air. If anyone has a writing problem, they should type their comment into MS word and run the grammar and spellchecker, then copy the result into the comment box.

 

[StephenToast]

Of course it will
Unless you clip it or choose a poorly place low neck, a solid non bone strike in the upper neck will kill often with blood.
The sheer force of a bullet so close to the brain itself kills.
Like a metal bar to the back of the head will!

My point was more that a poorly placed neck shot is a poorly placed neck shot regardless of what the bullet is made of.

 

[Ronin]

I’m guessing statistics is not your strong point? They can be made to show pretty much what you want.

average (assume mean) distance run 18 metres, sample of 348 of those 348; 230 were head or neck shot 118 body shot.

If a deer is successfully head or neck shot it destroys the CNS it drops on the spot. So 2/3rds if the sample ran ZERO yards and the body shot with new ran an average of 53 yards... Still not bad but the video glosses over this. Also if the majority of the deer were shot close in (like all the animals shot in the video) that average doesn’t really mean a whole lot.

Far, far more useful would be the average distance run verses distance of shot for body shot animals only would be more useful.

Even more useful would be a decent sample of animals body shot at 150 - 300 yards verses the same with cup and core bullets, using say 3 or 4 of the same chamberings .243, a 6.5 or 7 mm and a 30.

Also you should not take anything posted by field sports channel as independent, I would imagine they all get plenty of freebies - do they ever do a bad review of kit??

You would think that any animal shot during the test in neck / head dropped on the spot - as CNS shut down immediately

So based on zero movement up death the results from the stats will be the same

18 meters from shot to death

I think the chap who did the review (Mr Pilbeam) comes across as fair and has been open with what ammunition was used, its construction and terminal effect

I believe he is on this site - so perhaps he may provide some further in the stats analysis

Regarding the channel being fair / biased reviews

It’s not like the old of sporting gun with reviewers being given products and keeping them afterwards therefore guaranteeing a good review

Having been involved in reviews for Target Sports (when it was a printed media) I have to say that reviewing was done in an unbiased manner

My only gripe with the channel
Is certain pushing of products that have known issues without stating that - such as a Spanish rifle brand

 

[25 Sharps]

You would think that any animal shot during the test in neck / head dropped on the spot - as CNS shut down immediately

So based on zero movement up death the results from the stats will be the same

18 meters from shot to death

I think the chap who did the review (Mr Pilbeam) comes across as fair and has been open with what ammunition was used, its construction and terminal effect

I believe he is on this site - so perhaps he may provide some further in the stats analysis

Regarding the channel being fair / biased reviews

It’s not like the old of sporting gun with reviewers being given products and keeping them afterwards therefore guaranteeing a good review

Having been involved in reviews for Target Sports (when it was a printed media) I have to say that reviewing was done in an unbiased manner

My only gripe with the channel
Is certain pushing of products that have known issues without stating that - such as a Spanish rifle brand

But you could hit them with a .22 in the CNS and drop them on the spot, these shots really are of no interest in assessing the effectiveness of copper and need to be removed from the stats.

what they should be assessing is the effectiveness on H/L shot deer as this is the shot that could potentially lead to issues but is still taught as beat practice, and more than likely the shot most people still use. And to be of real use it should include at least some shot at longer range.

As for magazines, I stopped buying them a long time ago, they never show a bad review and there is a lot of shameless plugging of kit.

YouTube channels are very much the modern equivalent and the shameless plugging goes on. That ranges from the Field Sports Channel to individuals who tag all the kit they wear and use in their videos in the hope they’ll get sponsorship or at least free kit.

 

[Ronin]

Not a little 7mm I would guess. 7mmRemMag? I was sending 120TTSX at 3350fps from the 280ai and had similar confidence in them out to 250m. Very impressive combination. But I'm not convinced our collective FLO's would welcome everyone asking for 7RM's rather that 6.5x55's as a result of the lead ban

I’ve been involved in several large deer removals - I used exclusively at the time 6,5/47 with 95 and 103 g GS Custom bullets hand loaded

In that time in excess of 500 animals were removed

The shots ranges from 30 mtrs to a little over 400 most were heart lung shot - though there were a percentage head and neck, the former (body) was most prevalent

I recall four animals required a follow up to dispatch them and of those four all required dispatch due to my mistake not the bullet

I can’t comment on factory ammunition performance

But in my experience copper (GS Custom ) work and provide excellent accuracy and terminal performance at normal killing ranges


As an aside I did contact the Fieldports Channel to suggest they test available billets for hand loaders

But as yet have not heard any response

 

[shearstu]

I’ve been involved in several large deer removals - I used exclusively at the time 6,5/47 with 95 and 103 g GS Custom bullets hand loaded

In that time in excess of 500 animals were removed

The shots ranges from 30 mtrs to a little over 400 most were heart lung shot - though there were a percentage head and neck, the former (body) was most prevalent

I recall four animals required a follow up to dispatch them and of those four all required dispatch due to my mistake not the bullet

I can’t comment on factory ammunition performance

But in my experience copper (GS Custom ) work and provide excellent accuracy and terminal performance at normal killing ranges


As an aside I did contact the Fieldports Channel to suggest they test available billets for hand loaders

But as yet have not heard any response

How did u find the gd custom on the head and neck shots
Did they expand enough to make u feel confident
I neck and head a lot and use a 123 gr eld m in 6.5-284 to great affect

 

[Heym SR20]

There is now plenty of good evidence that non toxic bullets work and work humanely. Perhaps not quite as well at very long distances, but I do rather question those type of shots in any case.

Besides the argument is now pretty irrelevant. The Game Dealers have announced they will no longer take lead shot game after July 2022, and given that majority of deer go via into the dealer network, most of us will end up using non-toxic bullets and cartridges whether we like them or not.

 

[Selous]

Not a little 7mm I would guess. 7mmRemMag? I was sending 120TTSX at 3350fps from the 280ai and had similar confidence in them out to 250m. Very impressive combination. But I'm not convinced our collective FLO's would welcome everyone asking for 7RM's rather that 6.5x55's as a result of the lead ban

I think the video did no more than prove what many of us already know, copper works well inside 250m if it's driven fast enough. Unfortunately there was no real evidence presented on the heavy for calibre bullets - one lady said they worked very well but we got no information on her average shot distance and so her terminal velocity. She could have shot everything inside 100m for all we know.

They said that the Sako was everyones favourite, but why? Where's the evidence to show it was better than anything else? I would expect to be shown evidence of less distance run at longer ranges than the others to reach that conclusion.

I have written to Tim Pilbeam and asked if he would share the raw data he has. If he's willing to do so we might get some real answers, but as only about 130 of the 350 were body shot, and that was over 13 different cartridges, there will be those who say the results are not statistically relevant.

Yes it is a mildly loaded 7 Rem Mag. I have this last doe/hind season loaded to the next node up which is 3450fps and I have shot a few with that too. I didn’t notice any improvement in “killing power” if there is such a thing but I did notice more meat damage on Roe when shots were sub 100m.

 

[Ronin]

Head neck shot expansion - copper(GSCustom)

Front facing or rear facing neck - exactly same effect as lead cup and core bullet

Head - feeding Head down - same effect

Head up from rear or front same effect

Side head - not one I like, but of those taken, same effect

If the stats were removed from the head and neck shots if hazard a guess that the distance from shot to death location would be very similar

I’m not a copper acolyte and realise there are equally effective bullets out there that have been used for time in memorial

However - having used copper for the past decade (at least) for kill work and recreational stalking I can honestly say they work and they work equally as well in most of not all deer killing situations

They offer accurate shot placement and humane kill - that really is all I care about

Cost isn’t an issue - I get paid for kill work and I also use carcasses for my own consumption and a one pound investment on a bullet equals one animal for eating

The carcasses shot that go to AgHE or similar - I’ve never had any turned away due to excess damage

I appreciate this may be moving away from the original thread with regards factory ammo but it’s still relevant in context

 

[shearstu]

Head neck shot expansion - copper(GSCustom)

Front facing or rear facing neck - exactly same effect as lead cup and core bullet

Head - feeding Head down - same effect

Head up from rear or front same effect

Side head - not one I like, but of those taken, same effect

If the stats were removed from the head and neck shots if hazard a guess that the distance from shot to death location would be very similar

I’m not a copper acolyte and realise there are equally effective bullets out there that have been used for time in memorial

However - having used copper for the past decade (at least) for kill work and recreational stalking I can honestly say they work and they work equally as well in most of not all deer killing situations

They offer accurate shot placement and humane kill - that really is all I care about

Cost isn’t an issue - I get paid for kill work and I also use carcasses for my own consumption and a one pound investment on a bullet equals one animal for eating

The carcasses shot that go to AgHE or similar - I’ve never had any turned away due to excess damage

I appreciate this may be moving away from the original thread with regards factory ammo but it’s still relevant in context

Great comments thank u
And agree side head not for me either

 

[shearstu]

Head neck shot expansion - copper(GSCustom)

Front facing or rear facing neck - exactly same effect as lead cup and core bullet

Head - feeding Head down - same effect

Head up from rear or front same effect

Side head - not one I like, but of those taken, same effect

If the stats were removed from the head and neck shots if hazard a guess that the distance from shot to death location would be very similar

I’m not a copper acolyte and realise there are equally effective bullets out there that have been used for time in memorial

However - having used copper for the past decade (at least) for kill work and recreational stalking I can honestly say they work and they work equally as well in most of not all deer killing situations

They offer accurate shot placement and humane kill - that really is all I care about

Cost isn’t an issue - I get paid for kill work and I also use carcasses for my own consumption and a one pound investment on a bullet equals one animal for eating

The carcasses shot that go to AgHE or similar - I’ve never had any turned away due to excess damage

I appreciate this may be moving away from the original thread with regards factory ammo but it’s still relevant in context

Which GS customs are u using please

 

[User00040]

Head neck shot expansion - copper(GSCustom)

Front facing or rear facing neck - exactly same effect as lead cup and core bullet

Head - feeding Head down - same effect

Head up from rear or front same effect

Side head - not one I like, but of those taken, same effect

If the stats were removed from the head and neck shots if hazard a guess that the distance from shot to death location would be very similar

I’m not a copper acolyte and realise there are equally effective bullets out there that have been used for time in memorial

However - having used copper for the past decade (at least) for kill work and recreational stalking I can honestly say they work and they work equally as well in most of not all deer killing situations

They offer accurate shot placement and humane kill - that really is all I care about

Cost isn’t an issue - I get paid for kill work and I also use carcasses for my own consumption and a one pound investment on a bullet equals one animal for eating

The carcasses shot that go to AgHE or similar - I’ve never had any turned away due to excess damage

I appreciate this may be moving away from the original thread with regards factory ammo but it’s still relevant in context

I'm not a lead acolyte either, believe it or not I have voluntarily bought and used copper bullets for load development and live game (although this may not happen again due to recent price increases).

Trouble being, the perhaps unintended, consequences of promoting copper bullets to the point that they appear to make lead based offerings obsolete (which they won't when facts and figures are considered, not feelings).

The truth is that they are different, just as lead bullets differ in design and construction, even if they do produce the same results on occasion.

Furthermore, factory loadings are the crux of the matter, as not only will 'factory ammunition only' soon become a requirement in many contracts/leases (if not already).

Many on here will harp on about 'copper bullets work in my rifle'.

Well, how about I give you a rifle of questionable origin, along with other equipment such as a scope, moderator and bipod which are not of your own choosing, and just enough ammo to meet a sizeable cull target with a little excess to account for misses (which happen in the real world, believe it or not!) and a single distance zero on a makeshift range.

Now go forth and deliver that cull without your precious handloads, data and drop tables, dial scope and fancy rifle along with bullets which may not be working within their optimum velocity and stability range.

No complaining!

There are merits to copper bullets, but I don't feel these merits mean lead bullets should be 'banned' for use on deer and other live game.

 

[Ronin]

I don’t either

But if the aghe cease taking carcasses shot with lead in the future and there are no other outlets what choice do you have

I don’t use factory ammo

I build my own rifles and have many many for clients using copper exclusively with standard twist rate barrels - all work very well

I have clients who use my rifles with factory ammunition - they work

So I don’t buy into the factory rifle doesn’t shoot copper discussion

I carry out some work for a large organisation who use factory rifles and factory - copper ammunition - those rifles also work

If you don’t want to use it - don’t

But I wouldn’t anticipate much in the way of sympathetic ears come the time there is no choice bettween lead or a non “toxic” offering

Continue stalking or cease - I guess that will be the ultimate choice

I’d also add that I don’t sell ammunition or sell bullets

Any enquiries I get with respect to that I send clients to the source

I’d also add that I don’t gave a fancy rifle - both are working rifles that get used and abused in all weathers

The scopes are both tools of they trade too

 

[Ronin]

Which GS customs are u using please

HV 95 g in 6.5 and 116 in 7 mm

 

[shearstu]

HV 95 g in 6.5 and 116 in 7 mm

Thank u

 

[MarinePMI]

Well...this has been an interesting read.

1. The OP's grammar sucks donkey dick, and the punctuation was non-existent. He appeared to have the intelligence of the local village idiot. Yes, there are idiot savants, but they're the exception, not the rule. If he likes the appearance, hey, press on. But he shouldn't be surprised if people comment on it either. Cause=Effect

2. Copper bullet ammo does perform well on game. Just as well as old cup and core lead bullets, or even partitioned core bullets.

3. The old adage "You have to be smarter than the gear you're working on." applies here. Copper behaves differently due to weight and lubricity of the copper under pressure. It's neither bad, nor good. Just different. Copper bullets have been around for 20+ years, so there's nothing new here that hasn't been learned.

4. Biases are just that; biased. And they mean nothing when you have no choice but to use copper bullets. "It doesn't matter how cold the river is, when you have to get to the other side" ~Top Ten Things I Learned From My Hunting Dog.

 

[User00040]

As an aside I did contact the Fieldports Channel to suggest they test available billets for hand loaders

But as yet have not heard any response

Markup probably not good enough!

 

[jsimpson]

Well this morning I bought 2 boxes of lead free bullets some Winchester and RWS tongue them a try and tbh they were shocking I use a piece of ply 18 inch x 12 inch amd normally draw a 2 inch black dot in the middle of a sheet of paper well groups of 4 and one bullet from each group hit the paper only one of those was anywhere near i also tried a 4 shot group using my normal lead round and they as expected all thumbnailed anyone shed any light on this is this normal I worked a load up for my 300 win mag and even working up a load they all would of done well within the inch I tbh never tried shop bought offerings for that I just bought some barnes and knocked a few up ive not the time to work up a load for the 308 at the moment hence buying a few to try and tbh its always handy knowing you can if need be buy something that works

Hi. Iam also trying to sort out copper for the coming lead free situation. The copper bullets are longer and must be seated slightly more deeply into the case and so may not touch the rifling. I am also told that copper works better in 1:10 twists and does not like slower 1:12 tests?? Using Barnes TTSX 80gn (243win) with 40gn N160 I have managed to get a decent group and velocities of 2900fps and energy of 1300flbs through the chronology. But this is in a tikka T3 which has 1:10 twist. Now I have to do the same for 308. May have more problems as it a Mauser M12 with 1:12 you need to drop from say a 150gn bulet to the TTX 130gn. Hope this helps