UK Deer Dog Group
- Thread starter 308rws
- Start date
stone said:
Most authoritatve bodies start life as a group of people who know something about the topic at hand and agree a set of practices.
Note that my dog training expertise stops at getting Jack Russells to work together to flush rats out of stables, but it seems to me, Stone, that you have the makings of the first member of such an authoritative body.
It takes one person to have the idea and get it moving.
You need two things :
1. Some rules for how your org. goes about it's business.
2. A written set of guidlines for the practice/competence that you aspire to.
Now you start to work backwards - once you have (2), then you can specify desired training outcomes, then assessment of training outcomes, then training methods/input to achieve them.
However, given people's responses to any self appointed group of any description the two challenges you will face are :
1. Political backlash - which you weather by planting your flag in the ground and be guided by your own statements of purpose. Fair enough, consult with others, but in the end go by your beliefs in what is right, not a desire to please others.
2. Administration - get your business head on. Your concern will be people, not dogs. To run something like this you need to focus on your customer, not your product.
You probably know as much about dogs as you'll ever need to. Now you need the wrapping to bring your best practice to others who want to learn.
Best etc,
S.
Jagare
Well-Known Member
6.5x 55 the video proves what? Didnt see a dog tracking a scent. saw a dog running about and sitting when told to. Even the exwife could do that 
What that dog needs is a bit of serious line training then it would'nt come running up from behind you but would be in front tracking 
.
What that dog needs is a bit of serious line training then it would'nt come running up from behind you but would be in front tracking .
MarkH
Well-Known Member
Hi Thar
My local fallow stalking is shared with a pheasant shoot(lots and lots of birds in a small wood). Trying to track sensibly with pheasants/partidge erupting all over the place will distract most dogs. Using the tracking line gives some physical control just in case. Remember this is a tracking line not a long lead, the physical act of the dog pulling the lead slows the dog down and helps it work the scent.
If I am on the open hillside I will let the dogs work fresh scent off the line and old scent on the line. I have never worked the viszla on a tracking line /harness she'e too good at what she does.
Easy 8)
Mark
My local fallow stalking is shared with a pheasant shoot(lots and lots of birds in a small wood). Trying to track sensibly with pheasants/partidge erupting all over the place will distract most dogs. Using the tracking line gives some physical control just in case. Remember this is a tracking line not a long lead, the physical act of the dog pulling the lead slows the dog down and helps it work the scent.
If I am on the open hillside I will let the dogs work fresh scent off the line and old scent on the line. I have never worked the viszla on a tracking line /harness she'e too good at what she does.
Easy 8)
Mark
deer tracking
How are we going to set up a tracking database when in 3 days we are picking bits out of each other over who does what with what their dog. In differant areas people do things that work for them in scotland where I stalk on clear fell or in thick spruse. A dog on a long lead is hard work but down south in more open woods etc. and where roads and cars are everywhere its got to be better and safer to work on a lead. Before we start tracking deer for people we do not know and in places we havn't been to before. We need to think what are we going to do if it all goes tits up. ie, you tracked a wounded deer you could not take the shot, the dog has gone a far distance, the dog comes onto a road and could cause a car crash. And when this happens its the owner of the dog who gets all the ****. I hope I do not put people off it, is a very good idea but we need to learn more about what we can do. In other countries they have been tracking for many years, they have different rights and the public know more about whats going on. So lets learn from each other. steve
How are we going to set up a tracking database when in 3 days we are picking bits out of each other over who does what with what their dog. In differant areas people do things that work for them in scotland where I stalk on clear fell or in thick spruse. A dog on a long lead is hard work but down south in more open woods etc. and where roads and cars are everywhere its got to be better and safer to work on a lead. Before we start tracking deer for people we do not know and in places we havn't been to before. We need to think what are we going to do if it all goes tits up. ie, you tracked a wounded deer you could not take the shot, the dog has gone a far distance, the dog comes onto a road and could cause a car crash. And when this happens its the owner of the dog who gets all the ****. I hope I do not put people off it, is a very good idea but we need to learn more about what we can do. In other countries they have been tracking for many years, they have different rights and the public know more about whats going on. So lets learn from each other. steve
nell
Well-Known Member
Re: deer tracking
Well said STEVE,couldnt agree more...
Cant help thinking of when picking up birds, some of the guns that want you to have a look for almost every bird they fire at as they THINK they hit it..... DO THESE GUYS GO STAlKING?????
Deff a good idea guys, im in norway at the moment,hunters must have access to a dog,not ness to be thier own, works well
NELL
WHV Steve said:
Well said STEVE,couldnt agree more...
Cant help thinking of when picking up birds, some of the guns that want you to have a look for almost every bird they fire at as they THINK they hit it..... DO THESE GUYS GO STAlKING?????
Deff a good idea guys, im in norway at the moment,hunters must have access to a dog,not ness to be thier own, works well
NELL
D
Davie
Guest
Just like my sexuality i have no worries about my dogs ability at all. He was trained early in his life to only follow blood and gland sent using the with the wind method when he was good at following a line he was then given his head and aloud to wind sent. That way he can decide the method he will chose to find the deer. Now while the small video has upset you i must admit to the fact that buck the son of the first ever HWV to be trained to work deer is one of the best finders i have had but is about as exciting as watching corrie in the roe rut.
Now i seem to be getting picked on here i was just wondering is it because i am black
second vid was the extension of the first ain't he great
First video he was moving in on the beast and was loosing me so i stopped him made my way over and order the find again.
video 2 the fing a good buck that could have ben lost in such and area.
http://s140.photobucket._2006/th_DSCF0964.jpg[/img
No need for a line on this dog he works for me not him self he is not a hound. There is no need to use a line if the dog is trained right i cannot think of one reason why i would use a line on my dog or any other i have owned a few friends dogs stay on the lead but that's the owner not the dog,
This is an opportunity to help Fellow stalkers and hopeful stop the odd deer suffering . If some one wants my dog its there if they want one that's on a lead / line then they will need to phone some one else.
Now i seem to be getting picked on here i was just wondering is it because i am black
second vid was the extension of the first ain't he great
First video he was moving in on the beast and was loosing me so i stopped him made my way over and order the find again.
video 2 the fing a good buck that could have ben lost in such and area.
http://s140.photobucket._2006/th_DSCF0964.jpg[/img
No need for a line on this dog he works for me not him self he is not a hound. There is no need to use a line if the dog is trained right i cannot think of one reason why i would use a line on my dog or any other i have owned a few friends dogs stay on the lead but that's the owner not the dog,
This is an opportunity to help Fellow stalkers and hopeful stop the odd deer suffering . If some one wants my dog its there if they want one that's on a lead / line then they will need to phone some one else.
243varmint
Well-Known Member
Good video's of a great dog.
I think everbody has there own way of doing it BUT if it gets the same result ' a found deer that otherwise might of been lost ' can only benefit the stalking community.
I hope this can get set up some point in the future.
Jonathon
I think everbody has there own way of doing it BUT if it gets the same result ' a found deer that otherwise might of been lost ' can only benefit the stalking community.
I hope this can get set up some point in the future.
Jonathon
MarkH
Well-Known Member
6.5x55
I have a viszla, you have a viszla we both dont track them on a line, no problem. Viszla are not meant to be trained to track on a line it just wont work. All that frantic leaping around just does not suit line work
My bloodhound wont point pheasants and works best on a line, nothing to do with the quality of the dog or the handler. Its like cars you wont win a grand prix with a landy nor can you drive an F1 car across a ploughed field sensibly.
Tracking line work is for cold scents a minimum of 4 hours old, but usually tracking doesn not start till the next morning 12-14hrs and the animal may have travelled more than a km. Air scenting just does not work well in those conditions.
Each dog handler needs to do as they see best.
Mark
I have a viszla, you have a viszla we both dont track them on a line, no problem. Viszla are not meant to be trained to track on a line it just wont work. All that frantic leaping around just does not suit line work
My bloodhound wont point pheasants and works best on a line, nothing to do with the quality of the dog or the handler. Its like cars you wont win a grand prix with a landy nor can you drive an F1 car across a ploughed field sensibly.
Tracking line work is for cold scents a minimum of 4 hours old, but usually tracking doesn not start till the next morning 12-14hrs and the animal may have travelled more than a km. Air scenting just does not work well in those conditions.
Each dog handler needs to do as they see best.
Mark
D
Davie
Guest
Mark H i think you miss understand mate all that jumping about is just an excited dog on a stupid small video for the sites entertainment. That dog will work a blood line no problem at all but if the wind is right or there is no blood line he can do that . If you want a custom dog that's fine some people want custom rifles now that's OK by me . What i am saying is there is no need for deer stalking to have such a dog. I cant own two or three dogs for different jobs just like my rifles they need to be truly versatile.
PS if any of the pictures or small videos offend or mislead any one then admin has my full support to remove them.
PS if any of the pictures or small videos offend or mislead any one then admin has my full support to remove them.
deer dogs
seems you know what your talking about 6.5 but you have got to remember the best deer dogs in the world come from that part of europe so i thinkit would be good to try and learn a thing or to from them.i know i never stop learning but then im probably not as experienced as yourself
seems you know what your talking about 6.5 but you have got to remember the best deer dogs in the world come from that part of europe so i thinkit would be good to try and learn a thing or to from them.i know i never stop learning but then im probably not as experienced as yourself
6.5 x 55 said:i DONT WANT MONEY FOR THE JOB . It is nice to get out with the dog and find a few deer with regards tests etc. I am not interested in the slightest most of the european techniques for my purpose are ****. All i need is a dog to walk at heal with no fuss and to wind scent a deer and if i happen to shoot it back a bit then he will go and find it. Stile and barking leather straps blood trailing harnesses you can keep them for the Germans
hi 308 i think that a deer dog register would be good so that if a stalker needs a dog there is somwhere to turn to (i think fuel costs would have to be met though if being called out)
308rws said:Admin
The SD site is well supported with some 1200 members/users. Is there sufficient interest to trial a UK Deer Dog Group, similar to those in Scandanavia? SD members would have access to trained deer dog volunteers to follow up injured deer. Access could be through the website showing UK wide deer dog coverage by region including callout details/volunteer availability etc. Whilst currently such arrangements often exist at local DMG level, the UK has nothing as joined up as the Danish National Register. What do those who own deer dogs think
Finnbear243
Well-Known Member
A deer dog register is something we really should be considering and blood tracking championships aswell. When i have been on the danish deer dog register website www.schweiss.dk it really shows how far behind the UK is with tracking and thats why we should really get one sorted. Their are a few people in the UK that do deer tracking and stones dog day is one of the ways people will get more interested and start to try and get the register on the go.
Regards Brent
Regards Brent
The Croc
Well-Known Member
I will also put my name forward for this, but it won't be for a while, I have a Spaniel which I am training as a gundog for Wildfowling and picking up, this is his first season, and he has a lot to learn yet.
I have tried to teach him to follow a line but he is still too excited yet and quarters the ground until he finds it.
So it will probably be next year before hes something like ready. Will also try (work permitting) to make one of Stones dog days
Brian
PS I'm in North Devon
I have tried to teach him to follow a line but he is still too excited yet and quarters the ground until he finds it.
So it will probably be next year before hes something like ready. Will also try (work permitting) to make one of Stones dog days
Brian
PS I'm in North Devon
Guys and Gals
i hav revived this post for one reason and one reason alone
Brent
Swcheiss dk is a great idea but not workable in the uk as such
we need a different method or way of thinking
i do believe there is also an international register at work which covers all denmark sweeden norway etc etc
so more of a co-operative than just a country wide set up as such
this post is about setting up some sort of group not fighting over what dog is best or how it is trained
so how do we continue??????
interested parties may PM me with thoughts and ideas
things are happening
i hav revived this post for one reason and one reason alone
Brent
Swcheiss dk is a great idea but not workable in the uk as such
we need a different method or way of thinking
i do believe there is also an international register at work which covers all denmark sweeden norway etc etc
so more of a co-operative than just a country wide set up as such
this post is about setting up some sort of group not fighting over what dog is best or how it is trained
so how do we continue??????
interested parties may PM me with thoughts and ideas
things are happening
Best intentions...
I have to agree the UK needs a register, the problem is demographic / geographic coverage.
I hunt 8 pieces of land in the UK 6 of which are in SW / SE Scotland. The SE is a syndicate with 2 others of which we have to be and are all level 2, have 4x4's , manual handling fisrt aid etc etc and we all have deer specific trained HPR's so no issues.
On the SW land i have absolutely no idea the actual full extent of the syndicate size due to the way its run but the ones i have met are in the main novices and none of them have dogs. The crux is that the nearest that these chaps all live is the NW / NE of England. That's potentially a lot of call outs in the D&G area for the locals who are on the register.
Most people i have met that are serious knowledgable stalkers and / or have been doing it a long time will most likely have a dog or have contingency for the use of a dog so they dont fall into the target audience.
However if you fall into the armchair commando / have a go / transient interest stalker such as the people i have met on a number of D&G syndicates i would honestly question which way it would swing
a, if they would ever evoke a call out.
b, would it be a high frequency event.
Quick example: two weeks ago in D&G I bumped into a fellow syndicate member who popped over to my beat "to have a chat" that i hadn't met before. After he lectured me on his Bowers custom rifle (it was nice but to heavy for my taste), balistics (that old chestnut and the big giveaway that he knows **** about stalking), his mud rsistant and ironed clothing, the superiority of his Navarra vs my 90 i asked him what dog he had as i could'nt see it through the tinted windows. The look on his face you would have thought i had asked him if his mum was a good shag.
Its one thing posting a "sad sorry" (a shot gone wrong) but its entirely different calling out at possibly your expense a tracker and his / her dog at some shitty hour and potentially spending all night tracking when you have work 200 miles away in the morning.
The UK is still way behind the likes of Germany, Denmark, Finland Sweden etc, when it comes to regulation and training, the issue is with how accessable being able to hunt deer in the UK actually is. If anyone doesnt agree with that, live in Germany and see what it takes to get a Jagdschein.
In principal the register is a good idea but i am unsure as to whether the people who actually need it most and they may not realise this fact would benifit.
It should be mandatory that no dog (or access to) = no stalk. So the register would clearly be a great idea with a few caveats for usage and i would certainly be offering my services covering Cheshire but i'm 3 hours away from the borders.....
Best regards
Sariel
I have to agree the UK needs a register, the problem is demographic / geographic coverage.
I hunt 8 pieces of land in the UK 6 of which are in SW / SE Scotland. The SE is a syndicate with 2 others of which we have to be and are all level 2, have 4x4's , manual handling fisrt aid etc etc and we all have deer specific trained HPR's so no issues.
On the SW land i have absolutely no idea the actual full extent of the syndicate size due to the way its run but the ones i have met are in the main novices and none of them have dogs. The crux is that the nearest that these chaps all live is the NW / NE of England. That's potentially a lot of call outs in the D&G area for the locals who are on the register.
Most people i have met that are serious knowledgable stalkers and / or have been doing it a long time will most likely have a dog or have contingency for the use of a dog so they dont fall into the target audience.
However if you fall into the armchair commando / have a go / transient interest stalker such as the people i have met on a number of D&G syndicates i would honestly question which way it would swing
a, if they would ever evoke a call out.
b, would it be a high frequency event.
Quick example: two weeks ago in D&G I bumped into a fellow syndicate member who popped over to my beat "to have a chat" that i hadn't met before. After he lectured me on his Bowers custom rifle (it was nice but to heavy for my taste), balistics (that old chestnut and the big giveaway that he knows **** about stalking), his mud rsistant and ironed clothing, the superiority of his Navarra vs my 90 i asked him what dog he had as i could'nt see it through the tinted windows. The look on his face you would have thought i had asked him if his mum was a good shag.
Its one thing posting a "sad sorry" (a shot gone wrong) but its entirely different calling out at possibly your expense a tracker and his / her dog at some shitty hour and potentially spending all night tracking when you have work 200 miles away in the morning.
The UK is still way behind the likes of Germany, Denmark, Finland Sweden etc, when it comes to regulation and training, the issue is with how accessable being able to hunt deer in the UK actually is. If anyone doesnt agree with that, live in Germany and see what it takes to get a Jagdschein.
In principal the register is a good idea but i am unsure as to whether the people who actually need it most and they may not realise this fact would benifit.
It should be mandatory that no dog (or access to) = no stalk. So the register would clearly be a great idea with a few caveats for usage and i would certainly be offering my services covering Cheshire but i'm 3 hours away from the borders.....
Best regards
Sariel
Sariel
what a great post
some of the comments you hav made highlights a few of the talking points that of areas that need changing
which is exactly why we need a voluanteer based service and not a compulsory one
if syndicates are prepared to allow dogless stalkers into their membership's and like you say you hav no idea how many members in some of the syndicates out there often never meeting, only by chance
it shows these types of syndicates may need better or tighter rules
because potentialy you had a dog and on your patch at the same time as another member who did not
chances are if you knew how many members had a dog and where and when they were on the ground the potential of you or others being able to help out or get help is potentialy far greater
i presume you changed phone no's with the the other member in question
just incase, as if you had a problem he may of been able to help you out with also
but getting back to it , you probaly hav generalised how many think with attitudes to dogs and stalking
i agree we do need fresher thinking
there still will be a lot of deer lost wether a dog is called or not,
as some stalkers will be past that stage of feeling such deep guilt or others that would not want to call for help due to ne reason or another are not trying to target such people just offer help
shoot enough deer eventually you will lose one that even a dog can't find
but the point being making it compulsory then a dog like the bowers will just become a fashion acessory for those few or a must hav
not responsible way to head in my eyes or fair on such dogs as some life styles don't commit to dog ownership so having a mate with one is a huge bonus
people hav working dogs mainly because they hav passion for working such a dog, that is where our thinking lacks
it is not just for those that pull the trigger
but also for those that just want to work a dog out in the field
if it was not such , then we would not hav dogs in a beating line or picker upper's behind a gun line
most are voluanteers on shoot days and often not just for cash payment though 9 times out of ten it money may change hands as a thank you, others do it as a way to supplement an income or for fuel costs
stalking is no different apart from the fact you stalk alone some of the time
having a dog with you at your side is great but not always safe or practical especialy on real hot days or in terrain as such where harm could happen or terrain is treacherous, so leaving a dog in the car either is not often practicall or sensible plus it could get stolen
i believe we are singing from the same hymn sheet just diferent verses
you hav offered your services around cheshire way and hav a dog already trained and experienced 8)
you can help
there are many others out there who would like to do the same
just need them to come forward now
i will start another thread shortly just for that very reason alone
ATB
what a great post
some of the comments you hav made highlights a few of the talking points that of areas that need changing
which is exactly why we need a voluanteer based service and not a compulsory one
if syndicates are prepared to allow dogless stalkers into their membership's and like you say you hav no idea how many members in some of the syndicates out there often never meeting, only by chance
it shows these types of syndicates may need better or tighter rules
because potentialy you had a dog and on your patch at the same time as another member who did not
chances are if you knew how many members had a dog and where and when they were on the ground the potential of you or others being able to help out or get help is potentialy far greater
i presume you changed phone no's with the the other member in question
just incase, as if you had a problem he may of been able to help you out with also
but getting back to it , you probaly hav generalised how many think with attitudes to dogs and stalking
i agree we do need fresher thinking
there still will be a lot of deer lost wether a dog is called or not,
as some stalkers will be past that stage of feeling such deep guilt or others that would not want to call for help due to ne reason or another are not trying to target such people just offer help
shoot enough deer eventually you will lose one that even a dog can't find
but the point being making it compulsory then a dog like the bowers will just become a fashion acessory for those few or a must hav
not responsible way to head in my eyes or fair on such dogs as some life styles don't commit to dog ownership so having a mate with one is a huge bonus
people hav working dogs mainly because they hav passion for working such a dog, that is where our thinking lacks
it is not just for those that pull the trigger
but also for those that just want to work a dog out in the field
if it was not such , then we would not hav dogs in a beating line or picker upper's behind a gun line
most are voluanteers on shoot days and often not just for cash payment though 9 times out of ten it money may change hands as a thank you, others do it as a way to supplement an income or for fuel costs
stalking is no different apart from the fact you stalk alone some of the time
having a dog with you at your side is great but not always safe or practical especialy on real hot days or in terrain as such where harm could happen or terrain is treacherous, so leaving a dog in the car either is not often practicall or sensible plus it could get stolen
i believe we are singing from the same hymn sheet just diferent verses
you hav offered your services around cheshire way and hav a dog already trained and experienced 8)
you can help
there are many others out there who would like to do the same
just need them to come forward now
i will start another thread shortly just for that very reason alone
ATB
paintandpins
Well-Known Member
The following may aid this thread but I must point out that at this stage I can't give out any more information than I have done below.As it would be unfair in regards to the due process that the paper is currently going through, so please don't press.
I have recently finished the proprietry work on a project that will hopefully change the face of tracking dogs in this country. The paper is set around the implementation of a uk wide tracking register which is based loosely on the Danish model,(so if you look at that you should get some idea of what may be coming). It has wide stakeholder support and is at the final stage of approval. Should this happen it will progress to training and tests and as is hoped a total new approach to the ethical side of all deer management, stalking and rta's. I have no doubt that which ever way the decision goes it should lead to a lively debate.
Mark www.paintandpins.com
I have recently finished the proprietry work on a project that will hopefully change the face of tracking dogs in this country. The paper is set around the implementation of a uk wide tracking register which is based loosely on the Danish model,(so if you look at that you should get some idea of what may be coming). It has wide stakeholder support and is at the final stage of approval. Should this happen it will progress to training and tests and as is hoped a total new approach to the ethical side of all deer management, stalking and rta's. I have no doubt that which ever way the decision goes it should lead to a lively debate.
Mark www.paintandpins.com
Mark
what a trully sad day that to say that you hav started something that you are willing to say you hav started but don't want to discuss it any further with those it affects in a big way incase it affects the approval process
talk about being underhand
exactly how will effect those fianacially and those that live in remote places or those that stalk in parks or enclosed grounds or some one who just wants to nip out for a stalk at last minute or those that already hav a dog and what about the dogs welfare hav you taken this into cosideration
i presume we are also talking DMQ approval here
you must be able to tell us this surely
regards
what a trully sad day that to say that you hav started something that you are willing to say you hav started but don't want to discuss it any further with those it affects in a big way incase it affects the approval process
talk about being underhand
exactly how will effect those fianacially and those that live in remote places or those that stalk in parks or enclosed grounds or some one who just wants to nip out for a stalk at last minute or those that already hav a dog and what about the dogs welfare hav you taken this into cosideration
i presume we are also talking DMQ approval here
you must be able to tell us this surely
regards
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