UK Deer Dog Group

[paintandpins]

Sorry you feel so upset stone but I really don’t see why you should be. Underhanded? in what way. The idea is being looked along with the mechanics of making it work. Believe me stone the research side of the proposal has been long and hard and has taken the views of every part of the industry, especially dog handlers.
What comes, if it does, it will be voluntary and will make us equal with Europe and the States as regards a system for deer welfare and recovery.

You were right the post by Sariel is very good and correctly identifies the pertinent points, which is why I am surprised with your past support for a register you seem to be so worried by this one.
Sariel was in his call for statutory intervention a bit off the mark in hoping this would achieve making it impossible to stalk without a trained dog. What they found was that when call outs of trained dogs was made compulsory in Denmark this did not mean that some stalkers called a dog out when required, even if it was the law, callouts were low to start with compared to the present, (this data is all from the Danes themselves by the way), What was needed to achieve this was a change in what was seen as acceptable. If you like making it unthinkable to admit you wouldn’t call a dog. This is what is needed here, a change in attitude for some. Without this you can have all the registers you want, they wont work and never have.

Back to your post, it will be voluntary and affect no one. You cite DMQ. This is voluntary and those who do it do so of their own free will and in the main to enhance personal development. It has not cost jobs or affected stalking other than for the good.
Why would a standardized national register affect anyone’s livelihood? This is not going to be legislation, as I said it’s voluntary. I can understand reluctance by some handlers to become involved when you mention tests for dogs fearing that they may not be able to pass, but there is no need. Ask the Danes, Finns, Germans or the Americans.
It is great to get your dog to the standard and be recognized for what you as a team have achieved, I know I’ve been there, as have some of the other handlers who post on here. Take a look at what united blood trackers have achieved with their training, testing and recovery service.
What we need are people to recognize the long hard work involved in what we do with our dogs and how much we care for our deer and this also includes the major sporting organizations where deer dogs are concerned. This recognition is hopefully coming and about time. I haven’t even started on the need from a deer welfare point of view, though I am unsure about your dog welfare question?
It is no good talking the subject to death but doing nothing about it and I am more than willing, in fact I want views, positive and negative on this subject because this needs to work. If it doesn’t it will at some stage be forced upon us, and heaven help us the day that happens, as Sarial said you try taking your Jagdschein .

 

[Sariel]

Mark,

Excellent post.

My points of view in no specific order:

I totally agree that talking about this with no tangable action points / targets gets us nowhere, so any progression is a good thing.

Why is it secret squirrel? I think Stone is a tad upset because it appears that you have really advance this and consulted with people but not nessesarily on this forum. I care little who the individuals are as so many people read only and have no voice, aditionally its only one forum and thus represents only a small cross section of our market. Stone please dont interpret that as sour grapes.


A voluntary national register is definately the way forward. (I was hunting in NY state recentley and the set up there is outstanding) this is absolutely what we need and the crux in my opinion to making it all work.
You are always going to be at the mercy of the stalker (your Denmark example) as to if a call out is evoked, education and subsequent attitude and a positve associated stigma is key here. That in my opinion is the realy hard piece. I was on refelection lucky growing up and living in Germany, i took the attitude and protocal for granted.

Stakeholders, who exactly are they? My interpretation of this is any govening body who may validate / endorse or any body or individual who provides funding.

"Sariel was in his call for statutory intervention a bit off the mark" etc etc,
it wasnt a call more of a "if i ruled the perfect world statement"!!! I totally agree with your comment on this.

Qualifing criteria for the register..... Perhaps candidates without either specififc blood tracking or deer specific breeds may be put off before even getting to the performance criteria stage.
Not a criticism but people will look at your site and see Bavarians and perhaps wrong assume that if they dont have a Hannovarian / Bavarian they wont measure up. Fear of failure / embarresment could be a factor.
Performance criteria: will this be based on our european counterparts? In my experience i have met very few stalkers over here who have dogs trained to anywhere near the same standards, probably because on the continent its a whole standalone subject with some very serious, competitive, proud and dedicated individuals.
On the flip side i have seen peope who have a "trained" dog but they are not that competent / sucessful. This is ok for the individual himself but would it be worthwhile being on the register? Im a good examle of this: I currently have two ML's, one is great at hunting with me and goodish for folow ups, and the other (trained in germany for bringsel method followups) always gives toungue on sight who i now use exclusivly for follow ups after ****ing me off no end for bumping them whilst hunting. Of course that is entirely my fault as i was using him wrongly. If i was on the register i know what dog i would bring, but i have the choice.

I'm sure we all look forward to seeing the plan, i certainly will be very interested.

Best regards

 

[paintandpins]

A register

Sariel

I would agree that if 'i ruled an ideal world' then i would go for legislation, ( i would also be married to Cameron Diaz )and funnily enough i was surprised by the number of stalkers and handlers who favoured legislation during the research, however at this time i think we will have a better chance of success by means of a voluntary approach

Again a number of pertinent points have been raised and I will seek to answer them.

The research was extensive and did include this forum, among many others.

firstly i feel there is a fundamental difference between those who would like to be on a register and those who are competetent to do so. This is in the main due to lack of training resources and the fact that tracking and recovery at this level is such a new dimension to our sport in the UK, therefore, as with all of the other countries there must be a process whereby dogs and handlers can be trained and tested. The register will be at the forefront of our sport and must be seen to be effective and professional, through this comes the trust which it needs to operate efficiently. This said what we need to do is make sure that people have access to the means to achieve this which at the moment the majority do not and then it is up to the individual as to if they feel they can commit to what is needed to train the dog to this standard. Less than most think and what we need to do is lose the UK hang up about distance time etc but that’s another mater.

Secondly, yes we do favour Bavarians but that is personal choice because I like the dogs, we also use Labradors and currently i train HPR’s , spaniels, cross breeds, you name it they can all do it and why not. The choice of dog is a person’s individual taste and no dog will be excluded by virtue of its breed.

thirdly, no-one opens a box and out pops a fully trained tracking dog, the whole remit beyond the current proposals are that dog handlers can access a consistent quality of dog training and testing in the UK. This needs to be in some ways similar to what you saw in NY. It can’t be exclusive to breed and I for one would never let it happen, if joe bloggs and his Tibetan snail balancing terrier wants to enter the register he wont be turned away. If the team is a good team then it is a good team and that’s the bottom line.

Fourthly , This hasn't been 'secret squirrel, however the major stakeholders with interests in shooting sports and deer welfare, really have to stand up and be counted and as such need to so without pressure from the outside, this is why this has happened like this. They have been provided with the facts and the means to address them, what they do now is in their hands. It is also currently a proposal and as such likely to change in content so it would be unfair for me to say start training your dog to cover 400 yards if the final draft called for six miles with a basket weaving competition at the half way point, only kidding , about the baskets. The difficulty is, if one individual or groups of individuals do not push this forward, then it will be fragmented and will either never happen or never work. I would have loved to have consulted every individual in the country with an interest but of course you can’t.

You are right on the mark with the need to change attitudes and as I said make it unacceptable not to call a dog.
You are again bang on with fear of failure but we need to take that away. we need to be able to match willingness with training and help handlers all we can. At the moment the level of advice comes from areas such as magazine articles all the way through to days run by the big organizations is at best well meaning and misguided and at worst capable of ruining good dogs and disillusioning handlers. This does no service to the many handlers, including those who show so much keenness and pride in their dogs on forums like this, and who deserve access and help to achieve the best they can for themselves and there dogs. Tracking isn’t rocket science but it sure don’t help if you get your rocket plans from Forest Gump.

All I can say is wait and see what comes of it, its out of my hands for the time being but please don’t anyone take the hump because I need all the ideas I can get if this is to work.

Best Regds
Mark

 

[stone]

Guy's firstly let me say , no sour grapes at all,
this is a project quite close to my heart
upset yes
as this scheme has been tried before and failed on numerous occasssions
most recently in the last 3 years
reasons , legality i believe but more so if it had gone further another issuse would of arose which still looks to be missed by many and still is
i hav not seen your proposal Mark, so can't comment
but will be happy to give you an email address to send it to me, for my perusal
i may be wrong but time will tell, can't help if i can't see what i am helping
having a governing body back it yes
but not run or asses it
UBT was never set up on that basis or was Deer Search
as you must be aware that John was a founder member of both.
Training a tracking dog is easy training, training it to a specific standard or it's owner is not
as you hav already trained and passed for such you will also know that there would of been others there with dogs equally as good but never got accepted on the day , as you need a winner
tracking wouded animals has no winners, it is not a test where only the selective few can go on with elites stature
this country is not ready for that yet but intime it will come
lets think about the deer and prospective deer dogs and thier handlers first
as for breed standard or what breed ,there are horses for courses as we know ,
biase towards bavarians Mark
so you should be,
you look to hav a good kennel with some good dogs there
most working dogs can make a tracking dogs, just some are better than overs
i think chocolate labs hav prooved thier worth and more in Denmark but disliked over here with just a few hardened followers
i take it you hav included boar and foxes in your proposal and consultation with the RSPCA , RSPB , intime seek backing from any anti-hunting/shooting org out there that will listen, along with crown exemption and police immunity from prosecution as i presume most call outs will be to attend RTC's
from there you must of looked at the after shock where statistics will show and lead to
how much it will that cost to become a voluanteer as training will become statutory before you can be accepted to take a test and in time forced upon every one that stalks , that they cannot stalk with out the use of a registered tracking dog
i believe this is the case in some of the countries you hav metioned that you are setting up such a scheme from
not trying to pick faults or a fight just see a direction this is heading
a voluantry scheme is just that set up and run by voluanteers
Deer Search did just that and from there progressed gaining approval along the way
thats why UBT did so well and set up their own training schedules and tracking tests
but even that is not rated as high as other orgs that you hav not mentioned including the french one
Union Nationale pour l’Utillisation de Chiens de Rouge, UNUCR
which i believe UBT would like to build to
Sariel mentioned Jagdschein. , fantastic if you are in Germany we are not, does not count unless they go international
also must remember that just because you are named on a register does not mean that you can use any dog, only the dog that passed such a test that you were tested with, so 4 dogs, 4 tests , 4 costs HOW MUCH
you will hav to make each dog you own upto the same standard before they can qualify
or hav i got it wrong
Mark
i did cite DMQ as a guess
Am i wrong???
sorry for such a long post but i am interested now in what you hav done
ATB

 

[paintandpins]

You are right it has been tried in the past and failed but the reasons were far more complex than legality, which in truth is not an area that causes any great problems.
Why upset?
You have an interest in this area and may well be able to cite numerous registers but from my experience and research the average dog handler, or stalker for that matter, is unable to give details on any register that has run in this country.
You then need to change attitudes, which thankfully is already an ongoing process however it needs speeding up and focusing. This requires backing and resources beyond the individual or private group. Without this any register will have the same fate as those that have gone before, failure.
As to assessment the one thing required is credibility
Tracking is not difficult for the dog. It is however difficult for the handlers new to it as they have little guidance or resources to call upon and frankly some very poor sources of advice.
You are off the mark in thinking you need a winner, why? This is a test to see if the dog and handler are able to competently and professionally carry out the recovery of the animal. It is a set standard to reach not a competition, and as I said what is needed is a means to help handlers with training so they can reach this standard, which to be fair is not hard even though it seems scary and unachievable, people will be surprised.

I would say that the winner is the injured animal but it is pointless having a register of dogs that are not able to do the job because no one has helped them with training, advice and resources. Enthusiasm, commitment, and the love of your dog will not alone train a tracking dog, if it did most of the guys and girls on here would be handling champions. You need to match this to the advice and help that handlers need.
The first police dog I trained I loved him to bits he was great and so responsive to exercises and training but if I hadn’t had very knowledgeable instructors telling me what to do and how to handle him he wouldn’t have come to squat. I would have blown it and it wouldn’t have been the dogs or my fault. You need a standard and you need support available to get there
The register may become statutory but that will happen a lot faster if we don’t do something now and no doubt it would be forced upon us like so many recent unworkable acts. At least this way we have a chance of saying we have this scheme in place, it works so we don’t need legislating, and that’s the point of a professional approach, it has to have credence with all concerned. A group of dogs on a list just won’t do it.

You have got my number ring me as can any body even if just for a chat but I’m as sure as hell if we don’t form a united front on this we will either kiss it all good bye or worse have something forced on us by the very people who up to now have shown so little understanding of the subject.

 

[Jagare]

Its nice to see a deer dog register is takeing shape. long overdue in the UK.
When i moved to Sweden from the Uk it came as a pleasant suprise how seriously the follow up of wounded game was taken. Its allway struck me as strange how many in the UK stalking world spout about deer welfare yet a trained dog is never mentioned.
Here you have to have a dog trained to track the type of game you are shooting or access to one within 2 hours. Something for those who like there dogs to pull down wounded game to think about with the growing boar population in the UK.
As piantandpins so rightly said trained dogs don't come out of a box but the good thing is its not hard to train a tracking dog. Harder to train the owner to read what the dog is doing.
As said tests are OK for testing the dogs suitability to track. Don't be blinded by the scandnavian tests that all tracking champions will make good tracking dogs in the field. There are hundreds of tracking champions here that will never be used in action or to find a wounded animal many only do the competitions. This is something that is becoming a worry to many hunting dog breeders.
Good luck with the setting up of the register.

 

[stone]

sorry Mark
i may of been mis-understood about the testing sides of things abroad
maybe you could clarify for me
i understand that on such tests even thou the handler and dog hav prooved their worth it still is not excepted onto such a register,
why is that ??? did they not meet the grade on the day or were there others there that participated that were classed as better??????
as for a united front , i hav myself been involved with that side for a while now and still seek it
so i hav belief in that one day that we can all fight at the same level for the same goal
but i still ask one question
i guessed at DMQ
am i right or wrong, atleast do me the decency of answering that
as to evade the question is as bad as denying all knowledge
from here on this is my last post on the subject on this thread
ATB

 

[L.D.G]

For me it has got to be about the dog and handler most tracking dogs can only track and for me that is complete ****.Them Bavarian dogs don't do what others dogs can now my mutt will sent point and show me were deer are were and have past.On the very odd occasion that i need him to find a deer he will do that but that is may be one in 20 so not much call for the specialist a round were i am they can for me run round the country fairs letting every one looking on say how cute that dog is with the floppy ears.
Lets stop talking of making things legislation (law ) its making me feel queasy. Offer your dog on a register by all means but don't decry other dogs or handlers unless you have seen them work. ps i will bet there are terriers out there that can work as good as any bavarian.

 

[paintandpins]

iI don’t know which register you mean stone but if its the Danish one you are right not all dogs that meet the standard get on the register. It is my understanding that this is not to do with the top dog on the day but it is a design function to ensure that the register does not get overloaded in popular areas thus ensuring that the dogs on the register get regular work and experience. I can see the point of this but I feel it may make our register seem exclusive which I think would be a bad thing.
I said at the start I wouldn’t get drawn on the mechanics of this because that is not what it is about. It would be unfair of me at this stage to do that and wont. The bottom line is the proposal is in but the contents have yet to be designed, though the outline is there, and the contents are the bit we need to get right. It may not happen then we have to look at something else but at least we will know the measure of the major organizations.
As I said stone knowledge within these organizations seems very limited and if we left them to do it we would end up in a right mess. That is why whatever you think of the delivery means it needs guys like you to be involved and missing this opportunity may mean we never get the likes again. The main reason I cant at this minute say more about the delivery system is not that I want it to stay a secret, to be honest I don’t care but as I said the main players have to be counted and also I must admit that when I undertook this work said I wouldn’t. However in ten days the proposal will have been considered and I will be free of that obligation, that’s when the work starts, with a bit of luck. Do me the decency of understanding why I don’t want to be drawn, for ten days anyway. Believe me if we are let down or views not listened to by those who matter you will be in the queue behind me to unleash hell for lack of support.

LDG thanks for your comments i have written them down. I am glad you have noticed that my dogs have cute ears. You are right about the Bavarian being unable to do what other dogs do. I have been trying to get mine to sit in my handbag when I go shopping for years, mind you they are not that good herding sheep either, but hey I keep trying.
As I have said in my other posts I agree with you, any dog should be able to enter the register no mater what breed it is.

 

[doghound]

Just some thoughts on the thread so far:

I like the idea of a tracking register, but its important that the bar is not set too high that it becomes elitest or snobby. Or we get drawn into some principled argument about mandatory etc. Remember all animals deserve the same treatment and if it becomes mandatory for Deer it may become mandatory for all game. So likely will not happen.

In reality if the standard is set too high it will die as there will be so few members that it will be inefective. Our journey to organised tracking dog world will be gradual as despite all the lathering we as a country of tracking dog handlers are novices.

In support of the register will almost certainly be tracking dog clubs and training clubs encouraging hopeful owners to get better and help find them experience, similar to gundog clubs are today. Thier role must be to ensure that all aspiring dogs get some chance on real tracking etc.

Once you start to talk of training clubs and dogs moving across borders where tracking qualifications need to be recognised, transferable etc you inevitably start to cross the path of the Kennel Club, some thought needs to be given to where they might fit in etc. as paint and pins talks of stakeholders the KC must be one of them.

I would suggest a first step would be to register a tracking dog club with the KC and form an organised committee to represent tracking dog owners to other bodies such as BDS, foriegn tracking clubs/registers and resource owners like land owners. Encourage a decent size membership who are recogniseable and measurable. Because if the BDS or DEFRA or a landowner such as the FC wanted to talk or consult on tracking dog issues who would they got too? Not a register I would wager as the the membership will be low because it will require you to jump through hoops to get on it = no clout.

A national tracking dog club with 500+ members registered with the KC may have some clout, all it needs is an inaugaral committee?

Just some ramblings

 

[Paul 600]

The Kennel Club have ruined many a good dog breed! I for one would welcome a continental system where you can only breed a dog that has passed working tests! That way you know what your getting without show blood to spoil and infact change a dog wwith a whim or fancy of what is in vouge at the minute!

 

[308rws]

Team having opened this subject, I feel that we run the risk of being distracted by bureaucracy and process before we have even established A Requirement.

I therefore propose that we use the opportunity of this Forum to discuss and define our user requirements e.g:

A voluntary group.
Terms of commitment dictated by each member i.e. personal availabilty (24/7 ... weekends only), radius prepared to provide cover (10 miles centred on POSTCODE), remuneration (nil ... dog food ... donation towards fuel ... bottle of port), any idiosyncrasies (nil ... no tracks over 48 hrs old), mob telephone no. etc.
Anonymity guaranteed for all parties, both stalkers and dog handlers (via use of Avatars e.g. 308RWS).
No blame will ever be attributed.
Operation within the law and subject to the constraints of the Hunting Act.
All parties undertake to provide appropriate insurance cover.
Stalker's able to check availability and coverage of dog handlers via the internet prior to commencing stalking activities, via map giving UK, County, District ... Postcode coverage and 'Avatar' Points of Contact.
Stalker to remain in situ, arrange safe rendezvous for handler, clear all rights with landowner/s, guide handler to 'strike', remain on hand until released by handler, to confirm arrangements for carcass.
...
over to you!

Once we can establish such User Requirements we will then have a view as to what a successful UK voluntary scheme may look like.

Then we can trial it at County level and improve the operating procedures, before rolling it out more widely as far as volunteer coverage will allow for 12 months. Capture feedback (potentially utilising this Forum) and adjust procedures accordingly. Only once we have a credible level of 'national' experience should we go forward to consider training standards, accreditation etc. etc.

The proposal is a UK voluntary scheme run by deer managers with dogs to assist those without dogs, in extremis. Nothing more complicated than that.

 

[john d]

308rws
Lot of sense in that post. In Norway we have to have an agreement with
a dog handler, to make sure of availabilty, BEFORE we go out stalking. No good calling the guys in your area to find they`re all in the pub.

 

[Sariel]

Hi 308rws,


Three points:
1) "I therefore propose that we use the opportunity of this Forum to discuss and define our user requirements e.g:"
All that ammounts to is a club for forum members.

2) "(10 miles centred on POSTCODE)" i doubt if i'll have many call outs to Warrington? As has been posted earlier the demographic / supply and demand issue is very difficult to overcome as so many stalkers dont live on patch.

3) You mentioned Avatars, "Anonymity guaranteed for all parties, both stalkers and dog handlers (via use of Avatars e.g. 308RWS)" who in their right mind would travel at an unsavory hour at thier cost for someone who can only represent theirself via an avatar. Hardly accountable.

Stone has made a big contribution to this subject and Mark is in the process of something very formal with stakeholder backing, would it not be best to have a co-ordinated approach without too many chiefs, i.e. support the best placed persons in helping deliver the outcome that we want, The problem is not that everybody has ideas but that everybody want to be the boss. What actually needs agreeing is leadership.

Best regards

 

[stone]

The Kennel Club have ruined many a good dog breed! I for one would welcome a continental system where you can only breed a dog that has passed working tests! That way you know what your getting without show blood to spoil and infact change a dog wwith a whim or fancy of what is in vouge at the minute!

Just to wind you up a little here about show x working
i think if i am right in saying this
most labs if not all in Denmark are show x working
so like you say hav to pass several working tests before they can be bred from
this is what can be acheived from choosing the right breeding lines

but take paticular attention of Kim's dog Browns hunt Agpa (bred by Pernille Lillevang)
2008 eliteschweiss
and then another of Pernille's breeding
Browns Hunt joker
Nordic champion 2009
just clink on link, then on champions
http://209.85.229.132/translate_c?h...le.com&usg=ALkJrhiOn6NtmusdqudBV4l0lBwIhGCi5A
but of course the way they were trained also had a major influnce
if you look closely you will notice they are all part show and some are even chocolate sorry Brown labs
how cool is that 8)
would you now consider about a pup from such breeding
sorry P could not resist

 

[paintandpins]

Dogs and suchlike

Very nice site Stone, interesting as the dogs are multi purpose, is the distinction in the Uk, purely in the mind?
In Poland, a large majority of Bavarians are dual purpose and in order to be bred from must have a working certificate.
I've added pictures to day on our site of Benjy, 10 months old lab, with (as they say in the antique business) no provenence, as he is from a Rescue Centre. You couldn't wish for a keener nor motivated tracking dog.
So is it nature or nurture? Breeder or trainer?
Discuss.
Regards
alison
www.paintandpins.com
Ps I do promise to send you the one of me and the dogs on the couch soon.

 

[Jagare]

Don't get the scandinavian working show dog mixed up with the UK show dogs.
There is of course dog shows and show dogs like in the UK.
Working dogs have a breed clubs. Take for instance my Teckle "Taxen" Charlie to enter him in a hunting or tracking competion he must first be judged in a breed show and have got a 3rd place. Its so a teckle looks like a teckle. So you can have a SU CH "show champ" SJ Ch "hunting champ" SV CH "tracking champ" OR if the have all 3
SU(D)(V)CH "show, hunting,tracking champ" This applies to nearly all working breeds. So they are not dual purpose as in the Uk sense.
The Kopov and Taxen are both entered in swedens biggest working dog shows on the 15th August. The kopov is a inofficiell show but the teckles will be recognised by the SKK (So far 2 2nds). The kopov club hold there first officiell show next May.
Helena has a pure show Cocker that is brilliant at tracking and would have no problem to make a champion but she won't enter him and tracks just for the fun of it

 

[308rws]

Good evening Sariel

Three points: In answer yo your three points1) "I therefore propose that we use the opportunity of this Forum to discuss and define our user requirements e.g:"
All that ammounts to is a club for forum members. Apologies for any confusion, for 'our' I mean a generic UK requirement.

2) "(10 miles centred on POSTCODE)" i doubt if i'll have many call outs to Warrington? As has been posted earlier the demographic / supply and demand issue is very difficult to overcome as so many stalkers dont live on patch. Valid point, however until we ask the question and plot the answers on a map we won't know will we?
3) You mentioned Avatars, "Anonymity guaranteed for all parties, both stalkers and dog handlers (via use of Avatars e.g. 308RWS)" who in their right mind would travel at an unsavory hour at thier cost for someone who can only represent theirself via an avatar. Hardly accountable. One of the key lessons when the Danes established their National Registration Scheme was that in order to encourage hunters to report their 'lost' deer and any 'missed shots', a mechanism that guaranteed anonymity to the hunters encouraged best practice. I.e hunters were incentivised to phone for 'help', as there was never any comeback against a hunters personal reputation or their competency to hold a firearm. The priority for all parties remained the follow up and humane dispatch of any injured deer. As to accountablity, who should a volunteer be accountable to? He's accountable for his own actions and commitment to the welfare of wild deer. I'm not accountable to anybody if I stop on the highway and offer to help you change a tyre.
Stone has made a big contribution to this subject and Mark is in the process of something very formal with stakeholder backing, would it not be best to have a co-ordinated approach without too many chiefs, i.e. support the best placed persons in helping deliver the outcome that we want, The problem is not that everybody has ideas but that everybody want to be the boss I have been in contact with Stone and whilst I don't know Mark, I agree that a coordinated approach is required. My point is if you don't know what you want (the UK requirement), and you don't know who's prepared to commit, how can you co-ordinate an approach? All I'm trying to do is stimulate the discussion for an approach i.e. an outcome that we MAY want, not step on anyone elses toes.

PS. Besides come to think of it, who started this thread? [/b]

 

[paintandpins]

In its simplest form what we need is a register that does what it says on the tin and has credibility.
It has to have a net work of dedicated handlers who are willing to turn out when required and don’t just want to be on it so they can say are.
It needs to be professional and competent. This comes from having a standard level which will enable the team to have the best chance of recovering the deer. Through this you have confidence in the scheme, this of course is linked to competency, its no good having dogs that are not up to the job, (though I would have to say most are if the handlers have the correct resources and training).
To get this level of competency, as I have said before, it’s not that hard and people are unnecessarily freighted by distances and time etc, on the flip side those who succeed will have demonstrated commitment in the training of the dog.
You need accessible training which is of a higher standard than is on offer in some circumstances at the moment.
Call outs etc can only be taken if you have a dog covering that area it’s as simple as that. no coverage no one to call out which is why its important to get the best coverage you can, but not at the expense of competency, back to the dedication of those on the register. No point if a guy will only travel two miles and only on a Tuesday night. Time and dedication in training equals commitment so in setting a minimum operating standard which needs work to attain it should lessen/ remove those who cant be bothered because if they cant be bothered to work as a team with their dog to reach the standard they sure as hell aren’t going to turn out on a **** wet January night
Anonymity is a must, but this goes back to the system and the handler. It’s no good if they shoot their mouth off that so and so keeps blowing the legs off deer, you lose credibility and it fails. The continentals realised this very early on. The onus to keep the confidentiality falls on register and handler, not between handler and stalker. Most important that bit works.
Don’t get two caught up in the mechanics of how it would work practically because to be honest there is an answer to any operational problem, even if t has to start small and build which is what will happen any way. The bits which are interesting are what standard for the team, legality, training etc, these are the bits which caused me the biggest head aches and the greatest time spent looking at them. I won’t lead you with what I came up with from the research but would be very interested to hear new/any views in this area.
Sorry it reads a bit fragmented

 

[Stand Buck]

308rws,

This sounds like a good idea of yours, I have been working on a web based version of this for a while.

It would require registraition including full contact details.

No testing but there would be a feedback on dogs used.

I think a small annual fee for subscribers without dogs to cover the running of the site.

No fees for people with deer dogs.

Suggested minimum finders fee of half carcass value.

Standard aggreement for both parties e.g. permission for dog handler to shoot wounded animal. (I for one would not let most people shoot whilst my dog is working).

The site should be ready soon and I will post a link when it goes live.