UK REACH lead ammunition review announced

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Conor O'Gorman said:
@Sharpie please visit the FACE website for more information on the work that has been taking place on these proposals. Also, the meaningful deadline for submissions is 5 May.
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Re. deadlines:

I am pleased to hear that you, BASC, or the BSSC that you mentioned previously, or is it just FACE (the full EU version), will be submitting input by 5 May. Three and a bit weeks time away. Is BASC going to make a submission at all ?

Yet again, to re-iterate. From the consultation document:

The consultation on this proposed restriction will start on 24 March 2021 and end on 24
September 2021. ECHA’s Committees welcome early comments by 5 May 2021 to help
them in the first discussion of the proposal in June 2021.

The overall timeline is outlined as below:

1617909422017.png
Re. FACE UK:

Not sure how relevant you are.

I have of course looked at FACE | European Federation for Hunting and Conservation Not much the wiser as to what it does. Other than that it is "The Voice of European Hunters". So it is not in it's mandate to take any interest in target sports. Other organisations will have to cover our backs on that. Or not.

The only thing that they have to say about it, peripherally, is in relation to a survey that they only started on 23 Dec. 2020. Rather late to begin trying to gather evidence. FACE | Hunters’ Survey on Lead

As for FACE UK, the only info. that FACE have to say about you is that BASC is calling itself FACE UK. And that the Countryside Alliance is also engaged with FACE.

www.face.eu

Members

Members
www.face.eu www.face.eu

1617910155592.png
As for the link to FACE UK, AKA BASC, factsheet, the last thing you have to say is dated 2010, and tells me nothing of interest. Other than, back then, it was run by Jonathan Swift, and the members were:

ASSOCIATION OF MASTERS OF HARRIERS & BEAGLES
 ASSOCIATION OF SALMON FISHERY BOARDS
 ATLANTIC SALMON TRUST
 BRITISH ASSOCIATION FOR SHOOTING & CONSERVATION
 BRITISH DEER SOCIETY
 BRITISH FALCONERS' CLUB
 COUNTRYSIDE ALLIANCE
 GAME AND WILDLIFE CONSERVATION TRUST GAME FARMERS' ASSOCIATION
HAWK BOARD
 MASTERS OF DEER HOUNDS ASSOCIATION
 MASTERS OF FOXHOUNDS ASSOCIATION
 MASTERS OF MINK HOUNDS ASSOCIATION
 NATIONAL GAMEKEEPERS' ORGANISATION
 SALMON & TROUT ASSOCIATION
 SCOTTISH RURAL PROPERTY AND BUSINESS ASSOCIATION
 ST HUBERT CLUB
 UNION OF COUNTRY SPORTS WORKERS
 WELSH WOODCOCK CLUB


Perhaps you could enlighten us all as to what the current FACE UK situation is, if it is still a thing, who the members are, how active is it, and whether BASC is going to be making any input into the consultation, or are you merely going to be watching what FACE.eu do, then parrot it back to us with a BASC spin on it ?
 
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gixer1 said:
Alan,

the info I was referring to was the hardness of copper vs lead...the 22LR is (I imagine) down to velocity and mass of the bullet.

regards,
Gixer
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I thought it probably was.

I was just struck by the apparent contradictory notion of the slow and softer bullet of 22 LR being a known cause of ricochet and the fast and marginally harder copper bullet being similarly prone.

If you have worked both lead and annealed copper the difference in hardness feels negligible relative to steel, though the copper does work harden after a bit.

Given that a soft lead core bullet will happily punch through steel plate if travelling fast enough, I think it is the velocity (or rather lack of it) which will have most effect on propensity to bounce rather than bullet material itself.

Given all the velocities and angles of incidence that bullets of any material can achieve between the 22LR lead and the centre fire copper, it would be surprising if it was cut and dried as to any extra likelihood of copper being more prone to ricochet.

But I would like to know more about ricochets and hoped you had found some research. The reduction of energy relative to angle of incidence for one. The relative air braking effect of surface area of a mono metal bullet petals or the tumbling of a lead core and the sound they make relative to energy loss would all be interesting things to learn more about.

As far as your experiments in a quarry go, be very careful! Presumably you have seen the famous video of the lead core bullet bouncing back and taking the earmuffs off the guy....difficult to see that as being any more dramatic had it been copper!

The .50 cal Ricochet to the head video | Mad Ogre

madogre.com madogre.com



Alan
 
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Think conclusion 1 should read

1. Demonstrate conclusively that eating game meat that has been shot with lead ammunition is anymore harmful to humans than eating other foods and drink containing lead.
 
BryanDC said:
I'm also interested. Is there a technical problem with a lighter bullet at subsonic speed?
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Will lose energy very quickly, fail to expand past very limited distance and be blown around by the wind, we already have such a bullet know as a pellet and used in air guns, which will be come very short range vermin guns with tin pellets so the .22lr subsonic will probably be at best as useful as air guns today with lead pellets.
 
Liveonce said:
Will lose energy very quickly, fail to expand past very limited distance and be blown around by the wind, we already have such a bullet know as a pellet and used in air guns, which will be come very short range vermin guns with tin pellets so the .22lr subsonic will probably be at best as useful as air guns today with lead pellets.
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Isn't some of that just assumption. There are many people that use FAC rated air rifles out to 75m (and further if some on here are to be believed). Surely it must be possible to have a subsonic .22Lr at similar velocities and maybe a heavier bullet.

It seems that most of the lightweight .22 offerings are made to go as fast as possible. Maybe there is scope for slowing them down and producing something useful.
 
BryanDC said:
Isn't some of that just assumption. There are many people that use FAC rated air rifles out to 75m (and further if some on here are to be believed). Surely it must be possible to have a subsonic .22Lr at similar velocities and maybe a heavier bullet.

It seems that most of the lightweight .22 offerings are made to go as fast as possible. Maybe there is scope for slowing them down and producing something useful.
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All comes down to the formula, kinetic energy = 1/2 x mass x velocity x velocity.
 
BryanDC said:
Isn't some of that just assumption. There are many people that use FAC rated air rifles out to 75m (and further if some on here are to be believed). Surely it must be possible to have a subsonic .22Lr at similar velocities and maybe a heavier bullet.

It seems that most of the lightweight .22 offerings are made to go as fast as possible. Maybe there is scope for slowing them down and producing something useful.
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The problem is density. Non lead 22lr of equivalent weight would not stabilise in a standard 22lr twist. So you have two options to solve the problem. Drive the bullet faster. Can’t do that if you want subsonic. Increase the twist rate. Standard twist rifles are obsolete overnight.
 
BryanDC said:
I'm also interested. Is there a technical problem with a lighter bullet at subsonic speed?
Click to expand...
Technical issue is that a lighter bullet will have to be driven faster to maintain energy levels, so will end up super sonic and noisy.
If the weight of a non toxic slug is increased then the length of the bullet will go up, meaning that the bullet won’t stabilise in a standard .22 barrel.
 
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