Using Lee Dippers

[liamnjs]

Received some new Lee Dies today, along with a 2.5cc dipper. I have reviewed the load data that has come with the dies, and it would appear that any load made with the 2.5cc dipper is going to be fairly anemic. I realise this is to stop me blowing my head off, which is nice of them, but I was hoping for some advice as to how to go about dealing with the situation. Using a load I have been recommended by the bods at Barnes as an example, I would appreciate some suggestions on the following solutions as I see it;

120 grain bullet, RL22, min 41 grains 2530fps, max 46 grains 2762fps

• Sticking with the 2.5cc dipper as recommended in the Lee data would result in 35.9 grains, clearly well under the minimum.
• Invest in a Lee Powder Measure Kit and simply use a bigger dipper than Lee provided with the dies. For example, the 3.1cc dipper would provide 44.5 grains, right in the middle of the Barnes recommendations. This is by far my preferred option IF it really is this simple.
• Use a combination of the 2.5cc dipper and smaller 0.3cc and 0.5cc dippers to work up to a load.
• Invest in a scale, use the 2.5cc and trickle up to the required load, but this sounds a big pain if I have to do it for every charge

Thanks for your advice in advance.

 

[8x57]

Simple solution buy a set of Lee dippers they aren't expensive, or make your own dippers. I assume that you have a set of scales (essential kit).

Just noted that you don't have a scales. You need to get a set of scales ASAP. You can't reload safely without a means of checking your loads.

 

[finnbear270]

All my reloads are dipped with the nearest to my required charge measure, then trickled, It's just my choice, with practice, lots of rifle fodder can be made up very quickly, as to those who use powder charge droppers, that's their choice,but I can't be mithered banging the side to even up charge weights, I like to see an accurate charge straight off, can't beat every one measured off!

 

[scrun63]

I use a dipper, but only to fill up the weighing scale. And make sure you get a good set of scales - don't waste money buying cheap ones, they won't be acccurate and you'll end up buying again.

Welcome to reloading - you poor sod - laffin

 

[kennyc]

the dippers work on volume, the volume will change depending on which powder you use, another powder may well give a suitable charge from that dipper. my suggestion, as others have said get a set of dippers and check loads against a scale, belts and braces

 

[Brithunter]

Be aware that you can vary the load volume in a dipper by the way you use it.. You cannot be without scales !!

I found that a charge weight I wanted was not close to a dipper unless I changed the way i sued the dipper. The just topped off the charge weight in the scale pan.

As already mentioned.

 

[pj1]

i have also just started reloading. i bought the lee classic loader in .308 and a dipper set. the dipper i had with the loader was a 3.1 but the manuel says i should start with the 2.8 . this 2.8 is well under start load and the 3.1 is the start load exactly so i went for that and it shoots really well. by buying the set of dippers you get a sliding scale which lists powders and the weight of grains that each dipper gives for those powders. i was able to check from this that i wasnt going beyond a safe load by using a bigger dipper.

as i say i have only just started so my knowledge is very small but it has worked a treat for my rifle

 

[Muir]

Be aware that you can vary the load volume in a dipper by the way you use it.. You cannot be without scales !!

I found that a charge weight I wanted was not close to a dipper unless I changed the way i sued the dipper. The just topped off the charge weight in the scale pan.

As already mentioned.

I have used plenty of Lee dippers with plenty of loads and not used a scale. It's not necessary. After all, ammunition makers load to volume, not weight. If you use a correct and consistent technique a scale is unnecessary provided you are happy with the volume of powder that the dipper provides.

But that said, if you want to vary the load, get a scale.~Muir

PS: The dippers are designed so that even if you grossly misuse them and heap the powder in, you will still have a safe load.

 

[liamnjs]

Thanks for your advice everyone.

I have used plenty of Lee dippers with plenty of loads and not used a scale. It's not necessary. After all, ammunition makers load to volume, not weight. If you use a correct and consistent technique a scale is unnecessary provided you are happy with the volume of powder that the dipper provides.

But that said, if you want to vary the load, get a scale.~Muir

PS: The dippers are designed so that even if you grossly misuse them and heap the powder in, you will still have a safe load.

So would the simplest idea, using the 3.1cc dipper to produce a charge in the middle of the load data I quoted, be doable? Or is that too risky given the size of the dipper compared to the Lee recommendations?

 

[Brithunter]

Muir the problem is that you can vary the load quite a bit by not getting your dipping technique the same each time which is why I say use a scale to check. Once practiced yes you can be very consistant but one does not know this without checking.

 

[8x57]

Being a "doubting Thomas" I would never simply accept that a Lee dipper throws the claimed load without checking it with a scales.

 

[ndt man]

hi you say its a pain dipping and trickling well thats how i do it. and every round is spot on if you want loads that preform exactly as the last one thats what you have to do. you will never get this right without a set of scales just a cheap set of lee will do and not set you back too much. i have all the fancy bits but find its just as quick to dip/weigh/trickel and i use more than 500 a year.

 

[glogin]

I developed a load for my .308 with only Lee dippers and had no scale at the time. I just varied the volume by 0.1cc to go up from minimum. When I bought scale some time later I checked the scoop I used (3.4cc). Lee manual says 3.4cc of Vit N-140 should have been 43.6gr and on scale it was... 43.6gr.

 

[matt_hooks]

glogin, try measuring ten different dips and see how consistently you get the weight exact.

I have a Lee powder measure, but have been using it to get near, then trickling the last bit using an empty case. I weighed a load of charges from the measure and found they varied by as much as a grain either side of the target value. Not enough to be dangerous because I don't load hot, but enough to make an appreciable difference to POI.

The powder dippers are accurate, and can be fairly consistent if used in exactly the same way every time. I think I might need to work out a way of making sure the powder measure can be made to drop a consistent charge.

Of course the type of powder makes a difference when using volumetric measuring. A round "ball" type powder will tend to fill pretty consistently, whereas a stick type powder can have quite a variation in bulk density depending on how it is packed.

 

[bogtrotter]

All my reloads are dipped with the nearest to my required charge measure, then trickled, It's just my choice, with practice, lots of rifle fodder can be made up very quickly, as to those who use powder charge droppers, that's their choice,but I can't be mithered banging the side to even up charge weights, I like to see an accurate charge straight off, can't beat every one measured off!

+1

 

[Muir]

Muir the problem is that you can vary the load quite a bit by not getting your dipping technique the same each time which is why I say use a scale to check. Once practiced yes you can be very consistant but one does not know this without checking.

No. One knows this when they shoot the load on paper.

Agreed. You will not get the exact same charge every time. If used in conjunction with the loading data provided with the dies, or the Classic Loader Set, you will get a safe load that will be sufficiently consistent to provide good accuracy. If you use a coarse powder, your dipped loads can (and most likely will) be more accurate than those tossed from a commercial powder measure. My best loads for my 270 have never been weighed -only dipped- and shoot in the half MOA neighborhood. Likewise, I have never weighed a charge in my .222 Remington and it will shoot bugholes with cheap bullets. Mind you, I never shoot maximum loads. If you are one of those guys who must shoot at max, weighing is pretty much a requirement. You need to make that decision.

If, like me, your loads are not in the danger zone, dipping is fine. I will repeat this again because is seems to be lost on many reloaders: Commercial ammunition makers do not weigh individual charges. They are metered by volume. Benchrest shooters also load by volume.

When I shot cast bullet bench rest, there was a cartoon floating around the Cast Bullet Association journal that showed a tired looking novice telling an old timer how he stayed up all night loading loading for the day's event. The old mans says, "I'll bet you weighed every charge, didn't you?" The kid puffs out his chest and says "Yes Sir, I did!". The old man claps him on the shoulder and says, "Don't worry. You'll get over that..."

The arguments against the necessity to weigh each charge are many, revolving around the inconsistency of components such as bullet weight, bullet diameter, exactitude of seating depth (not "OAL") case volume, neck tension, primer consistency, and not the least, the nut behind the trigger. You could argue that if the powder charge is something that the shooter can have absolute control over but it is the least important in light of these other issues.~Muir

 

[Brithunter]

Muir,

I understand about the volume measure. In fact I have found that I can keep the charge weights pretty consistent now but it took a while to get the technique just right.

 

[Muir]

Muir,

I understand about the volume measure. In fact I have found that I can keep the charge weights pretty consistent now but it took a while to get the technique just right.

I know you do, but there are some that don't understand this. It takes practice but all one needs to do is practice doing it ten or twenty times- not even loading cases- just practicing technique. When you can repeat the exact movement every time, you are ready. Your loads will be as accurate as they are going to get.~Muir

 

[bewsher500]

I have been reloading for a year for 243 and 270 and havent used scales yet.

If you are going down the route of anally retentive attention to detail for reloading then counting grains of powder into you scale will work just fine.
if you want to knock up cheap loads, that are easy and quick to make and that will shoot 1/2"-1" groups at 100yds all day long then there (as far as I can see and am concerned) is no reason to NEED a set of scales. personal choice.
If you are worried that the data provided may not be accurate, think which country Lee products come from and how quick the residents are to apply aggressive litigious tactics for financial gain when something such as this turns out to be wrong!
no way Lee got this wrong when the printed the data.
the variables are not big enough for you to mess up by poor technique and inadvertently produce some massively overcharged load

as for dipping technique there was a write up about it on here somewhere and I stole my technique from that.

you dont want to scoop (in my opinion). The pressure you exert into the powder could force more or less powder into the scoop creating variable densities of charge.
The only way to obtain consistent scoop filling is to let gravity do it and allow the powder to settle into it's own natural density.

I do this by using a small low tumbler.
fill it with powder, push the base of the dipper into the powder and let the powder overflow into the scoop.
push the scoop so just under the surface of the powder level.
when it is full remove vertically upwards.
"cut" the excess off the top of the scoop back into the tumbler with an appropriate straight edge (I stole the idea of a business card from the man above!).
keep the powder level in the tumbler consistent and high enough to allow plenty of room to "plunge".

 

[liamnjs]

Again, thanks to everyone for your help. A set of scales won't break the bank and I will invest to check the dipper charges.

I have been reloading for a year for 243 and 270 and havent used scales yet.

If you are going down the route of anally retentive attention to detail for reloading then counting grains of powder into you scale will work just fine.
if you want to knock up cheap loads, that are easy and quick to make and that will shoot 1/2"-1" groups at 100yds all day long then there (as far as I can see and am concerned) is no reason to NEED a set of scales. personal choice.
If you are worried that the data provided may not be accurate, think which country Lee products come from and how quick the residents are to apply aggressive litigious tactics for financial gain when something such as this turns out to be wrong!
no way Lee got this wrong when the printed the data.
the variables are not big enough for you to mess up by poor technique and inadvertently produce some massively overcharged load

as for dipping technique there was a write up about it on here somewhere and I stole my technique from that.

you dont want to scoop (in my opinion). The pressure you exert into the powder could force more or less powder into the scoop creating variable densities of charge.
The only way to obtain consistent scoop filling is to let gravity do it and allow the powder to settle into it's own natural density.

I do this by using a small low tumbler.
fill it with powder, push the base of the dipper into the powder and let the powder overflow into the scoop.
push the scoop so just under the surface of the powder level.
when it is full remove vertically upwards.
"cut" the excess off the top of the scoop back into the tumbler with an appropriate straight edge (I stole the idea of a business card from the man above!).
keep the powder level in the tumbler consistent and high enough to allow plenty of room to "plunge".

In the meantime, given the information above and from others, can I please ask again whether the simplest idea, using the 3.1cc dipper to produce a charge in the middle of the load data I quoted, be doable? Or is that too risky given the size of the dipper compared to the Lee recommendations?