Variations that don't get dealt with - inefficiency or conspiracy??

[zambezi]

It is over 9 weeks since the senior FEO took ownership of my variation request. He has never contacted me. One of his staffers have called me to advise he is very busy. Mayhap. But take a look at post #58 above. It takes zero time to make an adjudication as to whether application is (a) lawful (b) within HOG guidelines and (c) need and competence have been demonstrated.

So...how many applications do you think the average person could process diligently in 9 weeks? Must be some backlog at D&C!

I have now engaged the CA and their Director of Shooting has now written to the head of D&C asking for clarity on timelines for the processing of my application.

 

[Highlandsjohn]

It is over 9 weeks since the senior FEO took ownership of my variation request. He has never contacted me. One of his staffers have called me to advise he is very busy. Mayhap. But take a look at post #58 above. It takes zero time to make an adjudication as to whether application is (a) lawful (b) within HOG guidelines and (c) need and competence have been demonstrated.

So...how many applications do you think the average person could process diligently in 9 weeks? Must be some backlog at D&C!

I have now engaged the CA and their Director of Shooting has now written to the head of D&C asking for clarity on timelines for the processing of my application.

Well done zambezi, the CA might get them moving. When the OP was at an impasse with his variation,it was basc I believe got the log jam moving.
It wont have escaped their notice that John is a practicing RCO who has probably forgotten more firearm rules and regs than they will ever likely to know,which might have expedited their intervention.Good luck..

 

[bowji john]

Mate

It is just like my application

You have shown enough patience - end of the day, all you are doing is asking them to do is their job

It is NOT their job to inject their own personal beliefs into the system

Something that I believe underpins (in part) their lack of action on occasion

 

[zambezi]

It is NOT their job to inject their own personal beliefs into the system

+1

 

[Orion]

It is NOT their job to inject their own personal beliefs into the system

Even if you do come from the wrong side of the Tamar?

Sounds reasonable to me.

 

[potshotpat]

Mate

It is just like my application

You have shown enough patience - end of the day, all you are doing is asking them to do is their job

It is NOT their job to inject their own personal beliefs into the system

Something that I believe underpins (in part) their lack of action on occasion

Have you told them you have DSC1.

 

[Hoof burner]

It has thus far taken me 16 weeks with my FLO to resolve my out standing variation. 15 weeks to get an answer and still no FAC.

My issue revolves around my renewal last year when my .300 win mag that I have had for 10 years on an open condition was placed on a named ground only condition,for reasons unknown to myself even tho I requested those reasons to be put in writing for me my FAC arrived back with the new conditioning on.

In the new year a friend of mine renewed his FAC (same FLO and FEO) I joked that his .300 would come back the same as mine. He has no ground or lease of his own and used paid stalking to gain good reason. To my amazement his came back open AOLQ!

I spoke to BASC and after a little negotiation a phone call I last Thursday recived an email to request I submit my FAC for amendment back to open condition with AOLQ

All of this took 15 weeks from my initial letter under the guidance of BASC to whom I am very greatful for ther guidance and support along the way,all that remains now is to see how long it takes for them to forward my amended FAC!

Any body fancy a bet?

 

[Orion]

It has thus far taken me 16 weeks with my FLO to resolve my out standing variation. 15 weeks to get an answer and still no FAC.

My issue revolves around my renewal last year when my .300 win mag that I have had for 10 years on an open condition was placed on a named ground only condition,for reasons unknown to myself even tho I requested those reasons to be put in writing for me my FAC arrived back with the new conditioning on.

In the new year a friend of mine renewed his FAC (same FLO and FEO) I joked that his .300 would come back the same as mine. He has no ground or lease of his own and used paid stalking to gain good reason. To my amazement his came back open AOLQ!

I spoke to BASC and after a little negotiation a phone call I last Thursday recived an email to request I submit my FAC for amendment back to open condition with AOLQ

All of this took 15 weeks from my initial letter under the guidance of BASC to whom I am very greatful for ther guidance and support along the way,all that remains now is to see how long it takes for them to forward my amended FAC!

Any body fancy a bet?

Which force?

 

[User00003]

you honestly couldn't make it up...I recently asked for a 1:1 to move from 9.3 to 22Hornet.. purpose is, don't use the 9.3 really, and I have found a 22 hornet I really want and could use for fox control instead of the 30-06...

but here it goes...because the Hornet is a 'FAST' round, it's not so easy (sense the sarcasm in my tone), so an officer was sent around for an interview, and also apparently I hadn't been 'seen' for a while....I have to say, one of the nicest blokes I've met, so no hard feelings there.....of course involving checking security, asking questions about how much sleep I get, how old my kids are in case they are of age to want to break into my gun cabinet,,how I feel, any stress, etc. etc. etc...oh, and of course the 3 plots of ground I shoot over and have done so for decades, including fox being on my 9.3, now needs land checking to ensure it's suitable for a 22hornet compared to a 9.3.....oh, and by the way, in case I had two boys around age 13-15 apparently there's a risk of them wanting to break into my gun cabinet, so greater likelyhood of my firearms being 'seized' apparently, simply due to having kids in that age bracket...ehhh...good thing I have two girls around the age of 3-6,,,I suppose I have 10 more years before they seize my firearms then..LOL..christ almighty..

yes, like I said, you couldn't make it up guys..

 

[Sonicdmb73]

you honestly couldn't make it up...I recently asked for a 1:1 to move from 9.3 to 22Hornet.. purpose is, don't use the 9.3 really, and I have found a 22 hornet I really want and could use for fox control instead of the 30-06...

but here it goes...because the Hornet is a 'FAST' round, it's not so easy (sense the sarcasm in my tone), so an officer was sent around for an interview, and also apparently I hadn't been 'seen' for a while....I have to say, one of the nicest blokes I've met, so no hard feelings there.....of course involving checking security, asking questions about how much sleep I get, how old my kids are in case they are of age to want to break into my gun cabinet,,how I feel, any stress, etc. etc. etc...oh, and of course the 3 plots of ground I shoot over and have done so for decades, including fox being on my 9.3, now needs land checking to ensure it's suitable for a 22hornet compared to a 9.3.....oh, and by the way, in case I had two boys around age 13-15 apparently there's a risk of them wanting to break into my gun cabinet, so greater likelyhood of my firearms being 'seized' apparently, simply due to having kids in that age bracket...ehhh...good thing I have two girls around the age of 3-6,,,I suppose I have 10 more years before they seize my firearms then..LOL..christ almighty..

yes, like I said, you couldn't make it up guys..

I had an argument at renewal about land for a 270. First I had to have somewhere with larger deer. Ok I can see the point of that. But when he tried to tell me the land needed to be approved . I have had an open ticket since my first renewal when certificates lasted three years.
He then tried to tell me all land had to be checked every renewal They have never checked let alone rechecked my other permissions.
In the end I told him if they insisted and refused based on the land. I would just find another piece of land and shoot on the farm anyway. As I have an open ticket for crying out loud.
Thankfully sense prevailed in the end, but it is easy to see why they are less efficient than they could be.

 

[zambezi]

...you honestly couldn't make it up...

It is NOT their job to inject their own personal beliefs into the system

These two statements seem to sum up the current problem: some licensing authorities are making it up as they go along. If it was just one authority, you might think these Walter Mitty embellishments to standard protocols are the function of an individual zealot/despot.

But for more than one authority to be creating faux hurdles to the licensing process suggests something initiated at a higher level. Regardless, they are all operating ultra vires per established legislation and HOG.

 

[zambezi]

I still suspect that they (D & C) had no intention of granting my variation and were happy to sit on it indefinitely <<<YES

So...latest update: It is now clear that the senior FEO at D&C was delaying the processing of my variation. Once it reached the 3+ month mark, I wrote to the Chief Constable of Devon and Cornwall: Shaun Sawyer. That was yesterday morning. By yesterday afternoon, the regional FEO had called me to state that the senior FEO, Steve Carder, had declined the variation.

Per the advice from Bill Harriman at BASC, appeals against inappropriate variation determinations take place in the Crown Court. Read: expensive. I will read the letter the senior FEO has declared he will write by way of explanation for declination, and take counsel. Subject to review, it seems that the Senior FEO position is out of step with Home Office Guidelines. So securing a Crown Court confirmation of his error, and one that all FAC holders can point to, is likely to be beneficial to all hunters who know and use larger calibres safely both here and abroad.

From telcoms with Middlemoor staffers in April 2019 I knew Carder was not in favour of issuing aolq to .300win and .375 calibres. However, in the preceding year I had discussed at some length my desire for .375 aolq status with D&C FLO head of department: Michelle Mounsey . In those conversations I had been given the clear understanding that were I to satisfy HOG criteria it would be no problem. But Carder's 2019 adjudications are at variance with Mounsey's November 2018 position, and his authority (apparently) sits above hers.

Staffers at D&C elaborated on Carder's position: "he (Carder) feels the HOG is badly worded and FAC holders twist its meaning to their advantage". And "...he (Carder) states that calibres like a .375 would blow a domestic deer to bits". Crown Court outcomes are not predictable. But I am pretty sure of this: the Courts do not like officers of the law rubbishing those who frame it. In my opinion, the 2016 HOG was written by an experienced shooter, someone versed in law and has wise words. Certainly, the author of that text would never declare that a "calibres like a .375 would blow a domestic deer to bits", because they would know that to be twaddle.

It is bad enough when national legislature goes against the shooting community. But when individual FLOs make new rules not supported by law, we need to throw light on that and have the shooting associations hold that behaviour to higher scrutiny.

I will keep you all posted. We seem to be entering difficult times.

 

[Orion]

After setting you a number of criteria to satisfy in order to remove the (unwarranted) restrictions imposed previously, it now appears that Mr Carder has not only moved the goalposts but taken them out of the ground.

Would an escalation to CC and/or PCC level be appropriate?

Have you actually had the reason for refusal given in writing, or are they hoping that a verbal brush off will suffice? It may focus the mind if it has be put on paper. Are BASC willing to get involved in the appeal?

 

[bowji john]

Apparently they don't like putting things in writing - they much prefer the verbal brush off as it leaves no paper trail

I had heard that in their infinite wisdom they were trying to prevent the issuing of .375

One assumes that 9.3 is OK being soooo much smaller a caliber

The idea that a .375 would blow a deer to bits is an extraordinary statement indicative of a ballistically illiterate author and will come as a surprise to many Southern African farmers who use the .375 for shooting for the pot

It is a sign of the times though

We are all on notice that life is going to much more restrictive in the years to come

 

[zambezi]

Would an escalation to CC and/or PCC level be appropriate?

I did indeed cc the PCC at this address at same time as writing to the Chief Constable. I received automated confirmation of receipt from the OPCC. The response from the Executive Team of D&C police confirmed almost immediately that I would receive update from FEO intra day and clearly that chain of command did take place.

7 emails from myself over 3 months and 2 additional emails from my shooting association [in last 4 weeks] had elicited ZERO replies from D&C. There is something very wrong when an ordinary citizen has to resort to calling the Chief Constable to get a reply to courteous and repeated enquiries.

Apparently they don't like putting things in writing - they much prefer the verbal brush off as it leaves no paper trail

The regional FEO [nice chap, but not a shooter, and by his own admission not 100% au fait with firearms and ballistics] said refusal will be put in writing and he will hand deliver same next week.

 

[User00025]

Sorry but I look at the whole thing as a conspiracy now. My reasoning is that most FEO's appointed have never owned a gun of any sort and know sweet FA about them. Peanuts and monkeys come to mind, why would anyone employ someone who knew nothing about what they were employed for, unless as I say a conspiracy to slowly remove firearms from Public ownership, on the basis of death by a thousand cuts. When all this c..p started years ago at least the enquiring FEO or Policeman had some experience of firearms (Forces or sport) but now I know of one or two who wouldn't know a single barrelled shotgun from a single shot rifle.

 

[mealiejimmy]

Ah, but to quote the ex head of firearms licensing in Scotland (the infamous Fraser Lamb)
"I prefer my FEOs to know nothing about guns - it's the applicants I want them to be professionally curious about"
This of course was to cover up for the fact that Police Scotland got rid of nearly all their experienced FEOs to save money, and then started using regular beat cops who had done a 3 day course in firearms legislation.


Cheers

Bruce

 

[Orion]

Sorry but I look at the whole thing as a conspiracy now. My reasoning is that most FEO's appointed have never owned a gun of any sort and know sweet FA about them. Peanuts and monkeys come to mind, why would anyone employ someone who knew nothing about what they were employed for, unless as I say a conspiracy to slowly remove firearms from Public ownership, on the basis of death by a thousand cuts.

If anyone is in any doubt that the above doesn't hold water I'd urge them to read the 1972 Mckay Report which concluded, “a reduction in the number of privately held firearms is a desirable end in itself.”

It was hidden and/or suppressed for many years but you can now download it from here.

Some background information on the Report is here.

And Colin Greenwood's Memorandum to the Select Committee is here.

 

[Redneck]

Police Scotland are saying just now a one for one variation will be done in a week, but if you want to change calibre it's a standard 16 weeks.

Two weeks back I went in to French Street Glasgow and got a variation for .375 + ammunition for use home and abroad within 15minutes.
As I previously posted on another thread I have never had a problem with Police Scotland on variations or renewals either from Pitt Street or their new location,. Local PC from my home area does the renewals visits and is always helpful.
One time I was arriving back from Africa into Glasgow on the day my FAC ran out. With a bit of discussion and help I was issued with a new certificate dated on my arrival date back in the UK.
Guess we are lucky with some stuff up here

 

[User00025]

Two weeks back I went in to French Street Glasgow and got a variation for .375 + ammunition for use home and abroad within 15minutes.
As I previously posted on another thread I have never had a problem with Police Scotland on variations or renewals either from Pitt Street or their new location,. Local PC from my home area does the renewals visits and is always helpful.
One time I was arriving back from Africa into Glasgow on the day my FAC ran out. With a bit of discussion and help I was issued with a new certificate dated on my arrival date back in the UK.
Guess we are lucky with some stuff up here

Something to do with two fingers up to Westminster.