Venison price is ridiculous

[muddy42]

population density and public access to forests are infinity greater that US/Canadian/Continental models.

FC/FLS have massive public scrutiny over public access and health and safety risk. To them close management of these aspects is far more valuable that paying contractors

I agree that's how they look at it, but I still think it is bizarre approach. Following 'right to roam' (in Scotland) public access is pretty much universal irrespective of the model of deer control (its probably heading towards universal in England too).
There is no reason why Tag applicants cannot be required to gain the same qualification as contractors, say DSC L2.

If you have a problem with people (with the same L2 qualification) running around with rifles on public land, you shouldn't let them run around on private land nor become a contractor, nor sign a lease etc.

If any of the above is still deemed unsafe, its the qualification that isn't fit for its purpose, not the way stalking is organised.

 

[slider]

I agree that's how they look at it, but I still think it is bizarre approach. Following 'right to roam' (in Scotland) public access is pretty much universal irrespective of the model of deer control (its probably heading towards universal in England too).
There is no reason why Tag applicants cannot be required to gain the same qualification as contractors, say DSC L2.

If you have a problem with people (with the same L2 qualification) running around with rifles on public land, you shouldn't let them run around on private land nor become a contractor, nor sign a lease etc.

If any of the above is still deemed unsafe, its the qualification that isn't fit for its purpose, not the way stalking is organised.

I agree to an extent but the amount of public access on public land, and the backlash is there is any perception that this is being impinged on is of a vastly different magnitude that on private land.

I live in the Tweed Valley forest , where we have 300,000+ visitors to the Glentress centre every year. Day light deer management is all but impossible, no matter what qualifications you have and the Tweed Valley is not alone in this respect.

I have a lease on private forestry adjacent and have been abused by the public many times for simple walking down teh track with a (unloaded) rifle on om back pack. I have also been out with teh FLS ranger and met mountain bikers at midnight on a sleety night 5 miles from the public road!

 

[slider]

Large parts of the FC / FLS forests are well off the beaten track and rarely visited by general public.

I beg to differ. FLS have gradually reconfigured the estate to divest themselves of outlying "single purpose" forests and have invested "multi purpose" forests where public access is high and very much encouraged. I have visited FLS forests in every corner of Scotland and have yet to visit one where there is not a fair degree of public access taking.

 

[foxdropper]

But even public access land can be shut for culling on any given days .

 

[AGR]

I think there is quite a bit of woodland where public access is considered to be part of the deer management. Loose dogs must have a certain impact, killing kids, chasing, abortions etc., but it does mean deer are mostly moved on rather than 'managed '.

 

[Freeforester]

I agree to an extent but the amount of public access on public land, and the backlash is there is any perception that this is being impinged on is of a vastly different magnitude that on private land.

I live in the Tweed Valley forest , where we have 300,000+ visitors to the Glentress centre every year. Day light deer management is all but impossible, no matter what qualifications you have and the Tweed Valley is not alone in this respect.

I have a lease on private forestry adjacent and have been abused by the public many times for simple walking down teh track with a (unloaded) rifle on om back pack. I have also been out with teh FLS ranger and met mountain bikers at midnight on a sleety night 5 miles from the public road!

Education, rather than acquiescence, might help? There is a job to be done with the deer, according to the publicity we read.

Equally, there are other more remote areas where it’s possible to shoot deer during the daytime, and are still under-shot, or according to the overpopulation reports we regularly read, as well as ’deer per square km’ aspirational targets; my point in submitting the proposal was to trial such a scheme in one or more of these types of area, I’m quite sure you know or have an inkling of what might best work down your end of the land. When 20% of the cull takes them 6 months in the more benign part of the year, I think there just might be an opportunity to improve on this, what is required is a positive and open attitude, which ain’t so easily found as the deer, or so it would seem in the local district office.

 

[slider]

Education, rather than acquiescence, might help? There is a job to be done with the deer, according to the publicity we read.

Equally, there are other more remote areas where it’s possible to shoot deer during the daytime, and are still under-shot, or according to the overpopulation reports we regularly read, as well as ’deer per square km’ aspirational targets; my point in submitting the proposal was to trial such a scheme in one or more of these types of area, I’m quite sure you know or have an inkling of what might best work down your end of the land. When 20% of the cull takes them 6 months in the more benign part of the year, I think there just might be an opportunity to improve on this, what is required is a positive and open attitude, which ain’t so easily found as the deer, or so it would seem in the local district office.

Educating the public that don't want educated and are adamant to the point of arrogance about their "right" is a pretty uphill struggle. The genie was let out of the bottle when the Ramblers Association dubbed the Scottish Outdoor Access Code a right to roam, and putting genies back in bottles is a pretty impossible task.

On the rest of your points I don't disagree.

 

[Freeforester]

Educating the public that don't want educated and are adamant to the point of arrogance about their "right" is a pretty uphill struggle. The genie was let out of the bottle when the Ramblers Association dubbed the Scottish Outdoor Access Code a right to roam, and putting genies back in bottles is a pretty impossible task.

On the rest of your points I don't disagree.

Agreed, but surely worth persisting with when the same public are dismayed by the devastation being caused to both the natural and not-so-native heritage?

That aside, I can’t recall when a rambler was last shot or even shot at by a L2 stakeholder; then again,maybe they’d prefer wolves to be reintroduced to do the job we are unable to manage, though I can imagine the headlines there too...

Away from the central belt and honey pots, there’s quite a portion of the NFE where man hours invested per Ha are pretty low, these may equally be places where potential tag holders might sit quietly for a few outings per month in a bid to recoup their investment and help with the effort, and if unlucky, well they’ve had a few relatively inexpensive outings trying to help the greater cause, and the tags can be ’reissued’ to the gain of the public purse and at no loss of opportunity to the increasingly experience-gaining tag buyer/stakeholder...

 

[slider]

But even public access land can be shut for culling on any given days .

Just try it. Entitled people totally ignore any closures. Have seen walkers and bikers throw barriers aside, ignore bankmen and walk/ride straight past harvesters!

 

[Matt Roberts]

Dealers are shafting people, all this crap you see online promoting game meat, but what person in their right mind would pay this price for it? Maybe if the dealers were more honest and cheap then we wouldn't be in this position

Think you’re being a little unfair here. Selling a couple on Facebook is one thing, running an operation with all the processing overheads, not to mention the distribution costs, wastage and taxes in a market where restaurants haven’t been open in a year is quite another.

 

[rem284]

Just try it. Entitled people totally ignore any closures. Have seen walkers and bikers throw barriers aside, ignore bankmen and walk/ride straight past harvesters!

I have recently taken to lock any gates in my area due to an increase in illegal activities. It upset a lot of people and some of them demanded that the gates should be left unlocked. They seem to want to drive wherever they want to explore, use firearms, metal detectors, try their off road driving skills out, get rid of their unwanted items, collect free firewood, collect amphibians, collect free plants, drive quads, ride motor bikes, get free stone, etc. Most of them seem to be genuinely surprised that they are not really allowed to do these things and don't see what harm they are doing. I remind them that unless they are authorized to drive their vehicles where they are driving them then that in itself is breaking the law and their vehicles will not be covered by insurance. One area, the no unauthorized vehicle signs was removed (unknown to me at this time). I stopped a couple who was walking back to their 4x4 vehicle and said their vehicle was not authorized to be there and said look at the Road and Traffic act 1988. He sad "you don't need to tell me because I was in the Police, you haven't got signs up to say so" . I told him there was signs but even if there isn't it doesn't mean you can drive wherever you want because every farmer would have to put signs up at all of their gates.

 

[geoffw]

Never lost one yet, when I've put it in the right place.

Tell me more- I've just loaded & zeroed my first batch of .308 Barnes TTSX 130gr, I'm hearing that the key to knock down is high shoulder/anything where there is guaranteed bone impact to ensure expansion/transfer.
What's your preferred copper POA & is that different to your lead POA?

 

[Leec6.5]

Tell me more- I've just loaded & zeroed my first batch of .308 Barnes TTSX 130gr, I'm hearing that the key to knock down is high shoulder/anything where there is guaranteed bone impact to ensure expansion/transfer.
What's your preferred copper POA & is that different to your lead POA?

Front end and bang!

Simple as that.

 

[muddy42]

I agree to an extent but the amount of public access on public land, and the backlash is there is any perception that this is being impinged on is of a vastly different magnitude that on private land.

I live in the Tweed Valley forest , where we have 300,000+ visitors to the Glentress centre every year. Day light deer management is all but impossible, no matter what qualifications you have and the Tweed Valley is not alone in this respect.

I have a lease on private forestry adjacent and have been abused by the public many times for simple walking down teh track with a (unloaded) rifle on om back pack. I have also been out with teh FLS ranger and met mountain bikers at midnight on a sleety night 5 miles from the public road!

@slider My deepest sympathies for the abuse you have received. I know some landowners near a town in the borders, where they have had to cease stalking because of the abuse they received from dog walkers.

But I think we are digressing here. If the public have a problem with seeing people carrying rifles, that is a wider and separate issue, unaffected by the authority under which they are stalking - tag or contractor etc.

 

[Heym SR20]

Tell me more- I've just loaded & zeroed my first batch of .308 Barnes TTSX 130gr, I'm hearing that the key to knock down is high shoulder/anything where there is guaranteed bone impact to ensure expansion/transfer.
What's your preferred copper POA & is that different to your lead POA?

Pretty much the same sorts of reactions as you with a lead core bullet. If you put a bullet within a few inches of spinal column the temporary shock wave will give the Central Nervous System as massive blow rendering the animal senseless so it drops immediately. You still need the bullet to cause massive damage to major arteries etc to cause complete loss of blood pressure.

With the traditional low heart shot just behind the shoulder, the shock wave and bullet cause massive damage to the heart and lungs, but the shock wave may well not give a massive blow to the Central Nervous System. Normally the animal will run fast for a few seconds until it runs out of blood pressure and drops dead.

Where you place the bullet is very much a question of how tough the bullet is (I wouldn’t take a shoulder shot with say a high velocity varmint bullet, but would slip one of those into a heart type shot if I had to), species, location, time of day, and whether you are willing to trade a bit of meat damage against dropping on the spot.

And there is now as much variation in lead free as in traditional bullets. So for example the original Barnes was designed to be a tough bullet suitable for high velocity impacts and lots of penetration on bigger tougher game. The Fox is designed to give good expansion at lower impact velocities. The RWS Evo green works like a partition - front half fragments, rear half penetrates through to give a good exit wound.

Personally I go half way up inline with the front legs and squeeze trigger. This gives me maximum room for error and usually a drop to the spot and a moment or two of kicking. Since moving across to the Fox bullet the only real difference I have noticed is much less jellied, bruised blood shot meat. And what I don’t miss is the mess that lots of fragments cause throughout the carcass, which you often get with a cup and core bullet.

 

[Roestalker39]

If any of the above is still deemed unsafe, its the qualification that isn't fit for its purpose, not the way stalking is organised.

Indeed it is

 

[geoffw]

Pretty much the same sorts of reactions as you with a lead core bullet. If you put a bullet within a few inches of spinal column the temporary shock wave will give the Central Nervous System as massive blow rendering the animal senseless so it drops immediately. You still need the bullet to cause massive damage to major arteries etc to cause complete loss of blood pressure.

With the traditional low heart shot just behind the shoulder, the shock wave and bullet cause massive damage to the heart and lungs, but the shock wave may well not give a massive blow to the Central Nervous System. Normally the animal will run fast for a few seconds until it runs out of blood pressure and drops dead.

Where you place the bullet is very much a question of how tough the bullet is (I wouldn’t take a shoulder shot with say a high velocity varmint bullet, but would slip one of those into a heart type shot if I had to), species, location, time of day, and whether you are willing to trade a bit of meat damage against dropping on the spot.

And there is now as much variation in lead free as in traditional bullets. So for example the original Barnes was designed to be a tough bullet suitable for high velocity impacts and lots of penetration on bigger tougher game. The Fox is designed to give good expansion at lower impact velocities. The RWS Evo green works like a partition - front half fragments, rear half penetrates through to give a good exit wound.

Personally I go half way up inline with the front legs and squeeze trigger. This gives me maximum room for error and usually a drop to the spot and a moment or two of kicking. Since moving across to the Fox bullet the only real difference I have noticed is much less jellied, bruised blood shot meat. And what I don’t miss is the mess that lots of fragments cause throughout the carcass, which you often get with a cup and core bullet.

Thank you @Heym SR20 , I'm to date, a midline/midpoint fan too- and pleasantly surprised to find that the 130gr TSX & 150gr ProHunter, both with 43.6gr varget, have the same 100m POI- I've yet to test out further, but that will be a boon when swapping between range/field.

 

[geoffw]

Front end and bang!

Simple as that.

No, not your driving technique @Norfolk Deer Search ...

 

[griff]

Tell me more- I've just loaded & zeroed my first batch of .308 Barnes TTSX 130gr, I'm hearing that the key to knock down is high shoulder/anything where there is guaranteed bone impact to ensure expansion/transfer.
What's your preferred copper POA & is that different to your lead POA?

High shoulders, traditional h/l shot often disrupted the stomach contents with lead due to fragmentation.
We had a meeting with the FC in around 2017/18 where this was discussed, the end result was that ANY carcass with green were to be condemned. So to mitigate the possibility of rupturing the gut most of us changed the POI to high shoulders..
The statistics clearly show that while copper is not as dramatic as lead it certainly presents a cleaner carcass.
It certainly does not lend itself to long range unless you are using something that keeps the velocity high.
I have shot a substantial amount of deer with my old 30cal using 125gmx, If I put it in the right place, if I shot them under 400yds it killed them.
The GMX's are extremely tough and I for one will not be using them again.
Shoot them in the shoulders, shoot them at a reasonable distance and it will do the job. The results will be a more presentable carcass...

 

[Leec6.5]

High shoulders, traditional h/l shot often disrupted the stomach contents with lead due to fragmentation.
We had a meeting with the FC in around 2017/18 where this was discussed, the end result was that ANY carcass with green were to be condemned. So to mitigate the possibility of rupturing the gut most of us changed the POI to high shoulders..
The statistics clearly show that while copper is not as dramatic as lead it certainly presents a cleaner carcass.
It certainly does not lend itself to long range unless you are using something that keeps the velocity high.
I have shot a substantial amount of deer with my old 30cal using 125gmx, If I put it in the right place, if I shot them under 400yds it killed them.
The GMX's are extremely tough and I for one will not be using them again.
Shoot them in the shoulders, shoot them at a reasonable distance and it will do the job. The results will be a more presentable carcass...

I also found that out with the GMX and the exact reason I don’t use them and advise not to use them.