Vets - are their bills too large?

[scubadog]

I cant for the life of me see what justification tuition fees are for over inflated prices. All graduates have these costs which are only paid back when your earnings exceed a certain amount
(have you been talking to APACHE -- break out the violin you will have me feeling sorry for them shortly)
knowitall

That's fair enough - but not all students have a degree that YOU require the specislist knowledge of!!

A music/dance/drama student has the same debt, but you have no reason to require their specialist knowledge, hence why you would have no reason to pay their fees!

You also hit the knail on the head - most of the pointless degrees will NEVER earn over the threshold to have to repay! So your argument doesn't stand!

Its also not just the investment in money you have to pay for, it is the investment in the time and scarification required to get a decent degree!

Note: Don't take pointless degree! They are well....pointless!

 

[Highlander]

Rubbish yourself!!

YOU may not charge that mark up, however I KNOW of vets that do!

Again rubbish yourself!
YOU may use a portable xray for dogs, however the vets I am associated with uses a fixed one!
The farms I have visited with vets we quite often use a portable xray on the cows!

Again - YOU may not make more money on large animal, however down here they certainly do!!!

They are facts I KNOW because I have had history with a vetenary partner, so I have had inside knowledge of the goings on!

Remember you are just talking for yourself - you do not talk for the rest of the vets in the country!

Scubadog

Farmers ultimately being business people, I have some difficulty in believing they would swallow a mark up of that size. Particularly when we are talking the type and amount of drugs ordered.

But if that is indeed the case, and you say you have had "history" with a veterinary partner that may/may not charge out at this rate, you are actually doing what you accuse Apache of doing but in reverse.

In other words transposing your "experiences" of "one" vet and claiming that all vets do the same. So your "insider" experience could be argued to be extremely one dimensional.


I will also reiterate part of one of my previous posts, in that an independent business analysis company actively states that the national average profit margin for a veterinary practice in the UK is 2%.

Not 200 or even 20%. Not many professions / business would survive on that.

regards,

HL

 

[Selous]

Rubbish yourself!!

YOU may not charge that mark up, however I KNOW of vets that do!

Again rubbish yourself!
YOU may use a portable xray for dogs, however the vets I am associated with uses a fixed one!
The farms I have visited with vets we quite often use a portable xray on the cows!

Again - YOU may not make more money on large animal, however down here they certainly do!!!

They are facts I KNOW because I have had history with a vetenary partner, so I have had inside knowledge of the goings on!

Remember you are just talking for yourself - you do not talk for the rest of the vets in the country!

I dont think hunk I have ever seen a cow xrayed at all .....Not even at university. Were you talking about an ultrasound scanner?? Easy to tell the difference as you don't stick an X-ray machine up a cows backside like you do an ultrasound probe. As for 300% markup... I have never come across any practice marking up that much. Perhaps the vet you had relations with was only after the ££ but not all of us are.

 

[billh]

OK folks lets all calm down a bit and not start throwing too much crap into the air.
I started this thread because I was not very happy with a bill that I had received along with the carcass of my dog.
I'm still not happy with the situation and firmly believe it is the MRCVS tag that costs the money. If more foreign vets were allowed to practice here the bills would be driven down. Trouble is a lot of foreign vet qualifications are not acceptable for RCVS for membership.

 

[scubadog]

the small animal drugs they charge the 100's of % mark up
You are quite right - they wouldn't get away with that on large animal.

Again - we have x rayed cows - it may just be the way this particular vet does it, though cant remember why.



I never said there OVER ALL profit was 200%!

Geese - if you cant read and understand that then I think a strongly worded letter to your university should see a refund on your fees for your degree!

 

[Dalua]

If there were no NHS and large-scale (human) health insurance were banned (as it undoubtedly should be), I think that it would quickly become clear to most medical practitioners that it is not by offering a service to ill people that one becomes wealthy.

My beef with human health insurance, which I am shamelessly extrapolating to the veterinary sphere (despite that fact that I know even less about that area than the other) is that twofold:

1. It perhaps causes patients/customers to believe that doing everything and doing it often is of itself a good thing.
This is no doubt often patient/customer-led - but without the restraint on their lust for investigation/treatment that having to fork out directly provides, and when the practitioner knows exactly what the insurance will cough up for, one can see how a circular worsening of doing too much can develop, with a risk of bluntening ordinary clinical skills and common sense as instruments of treatment.
2. This might further effects on the practitioners: they might start to believe that unless they do everything they are not doing enough, for example. They might also come to believe that because it is an insurance job, the customer somehow isn't paying.

On the subject of drugs, I note that vets seem to be much heavier users of brand-names than medical practitioners. Is it perhaps that the generic (sometimes, though not always, cheaper for the customer but with better margins for the retailer) way of doing things is not so well-developed in the vet world?

I will also reiterate part of one of my previous posts, in that an independent business analysis company actively states that the national average profit margin for a veterinary practice in the UK is 2%.

Profit - the sworn enemy of profitability, as my accountant says!

 

[Highlander]

the small animal drugs they charge the 100's of % mark up
You are quite right - they wouldn't get away with that on large animal.

Again - we have x rayed cows - it may just be the way this particular vet does it, though cant remember why.



I never said there OVER ALL profit was 200%!

Geese - if you cant read and understand that then I think a strongly worded letter to your university should see a refund on your fees for your degree!

Never said you did, you just assumed I did. Another assumption I assume.

And you may find that should be Geez or Jeez, not Geese.


By the way I have actually x-rayed a cow.

 

[Apache]

On the subject of drugs, I note that vets seem to be much heavier users of brand-names than medical practitioners. Is it perhaps that the generic (sometimes, though not always, cheaper for the customer but with better margins for the retailer) way of doing things is not so well-developed in the vet world?

The veterinary medicine regulations mean for any vet to prescribe a medicine for an animal, one with a veterinary licence must be prescribed if it exists. It is only where we have no vet licensed medicine we can use human drugs.

I am breaking the law selling you a human amoxycillin tablet that costs 10p and have to sell you the vet drug at £1.00 each.

It's madness.

 

[Highlander]

If there were no NHS and large-scale (human) health insurance were banned (as it undoubtedly should be), I think that it would quickly become clear to most medical practitioners that it is not by offering a service to ill people that one becomes wealthy.

My beef with human health insurance, which I am shamelessly extrapolating to the veterinary sphere (despite that fact that I know even less about that area than the other) is that twofold:

1. It perhaps causes patients/customers to believe that doing everything and doing it often is of itself a good thing.
This is no doubt often patient/customer-led - but without the restraint on their lust for investigation/treatment that having to fork out directly provides, and when the practitioner knows exactly what the insurance will cough up for, one can see how a circular worsening of doing too much can develop, with a risk of bluntening ordinary clinical skills and common sense as instruments of treatment.
2. This might further effects on the practitioners: they might start to believe that unless they do everything they are not doing enough, for example. They might also come to believe that because it is an insurance job, the customer somehow isn't paying.

On the subject of drugs, I note that vets seem to be much heavier users of brand-names than medical practitioners. Is it perhaps that the generic (sometimes, though not always, cheaper for the customer but with better margins for the retailer) way of doing things is not so well-developed in the vet world?


Profit - the sworn enemy of profitability, as my accountant says!

Unfortunately, with regards to your generic drugs point, we are completely hamstrung by legislation.

 

[Highlander]

I wonder if we will break the 100 posts by end of play??!

 

[Dalua]

The veterinary medicine regulations mean for any vet to prescribe a medicine for an animal, one with a veterinary licence must be prescribed if it exists. It is only where we have no vet licensed medicine we can use human drugs.

I am breaking the law selling you a human amoxycillin tablet that costs 10p and have to sell you the vet drug at £1.00 each.

It's madness.

Yikes. Does that mean if you write a customer a script for amoxicillin for their dog (just an example - no idea whether one actually might), you have to prescribe a dog-specific brand?

 

[Apache]

Yikes. Does that mean if you write a customer a script for amoxicillin for their dog (just an example - no idea whether one actually might), you have to prescribe a dog-specific brand?

Yes.

 

[Paul at Fechan]

and there was me thinking my dentist was expensive...


point being that for time spent, treatment given and drugs prescribed by highly qualified professionals, I'd be very surprised for it not to sting the wallet. This generic v's species specific drug thing though is bending my noodle.

 

[kennyc]

well for what its worth, I was glad to find a vet prepared at short notice to treat one of my dogs after it had a flap torn out of it by a GSD, yes it cost a lot , but I got to pick the dog up at 21.30 the same evening, and the vet didn't hit me with an unsociable hours charge (unlike the large practise locally) he's a new business and working hard, he has my business (well he already had it, but more so now)

 

[Highlander]

Any dentists on here??!!

 

[Buchan]

It is interesting how this thread (and many other on a similar theme of vet's fees) has developed into a pattern. There are those who post who are unhappy with being charged a lot of money by their vet, then there are the vets who try and explain that medicine is expensive and then there are those who accept the fees they are charged as a reflection of a job well done. This sounds like the running of a normal business to me and the issue of mark-up on cost of goods will always rankle. For some of our larger farms we've changed the fee structure and they now pay more per hour and less on the medicines, but the bill remains essentially the same. Other farms prefer the previous system of lower fees and more for their medicines.

As myself and the other vets have and will continue to state, I could do the work cheaper with a real cut price basic outfit but it's not the sort of model I'd wish to offer. I also want to be able to make some sort of income that reflects the effort I put in.

 

[billh]

How many Vets/Practices list the prices for common items/treatments in their reception area?
Please do not reply with 'no treatments are the same so we cannot do it'. You could specify what a U/S scan, xray, regular preventative injections will cost as also you could with drugs and an hourly/part hourly rate for consultations.
How about a 'contract' between vets/practices and regular users?

 

[Apache]

We did have a list up, but medication prices constantly change so it was never up to date. I'm quite happy telling people what anything costs on request, either in person, over the phone or by email. If you ask a simple question then you will get a simple answer.

eg

"how much is it to scan my bitch and find out if she's pregnant?"

It's a fixed fee. Occasionally there will be occasions where the vet is unsure and (I don't know how others handle this) but I will ask the owner to come back in a week and scan again FOC. If the owner wants I even have the facility to print out pictures (at no extra charge!).

If you ask:

"how much to remove this tumour" or bring me a dog that is showing symptoms of being vaguely unwell then the price can vary massively depending on how the case evolves. Sometimes we go over estimate, but frequently come in under. If you wanted an exact quote then I'd have to err on the side of caution and go in with a very high price.

We also offer substantial discounts to encurrage good behaviour from people with large numbers of (particularly) working dogs (as much as a 30% discount on things like boosters, chips etc). If they bring in multiple animals it's more efficient for me.

We run a pet health plan (a form of contract) where you pay a small monthly fee and that includes vaccines, all wormers, flea treatment, a chip for puppies, discounts on neutering, dental work, ongoing medications, a free 6 monthly health check etc etc.

 

[Highlander]

How many Vets/Practices list the prices for common items/treatments in their reception area?
Please do not reply with 'no treatments are the same so we cannot do it'. You could specify what a U/S scan, xray, regular preventative injections will cost as also you could with drugs and an hourly/part hourly rate for consultations.
How about a 'contract' between vets/practices and regular users?

If they submit themselves to the RCVS Practice Standards Scheme they do have to display common drug prices, consult fees etc.
If you are interested it is in paragraph 8.6, page 68, of a 91 page document, if you google it. They also have to inform clients on cost of procedures etc when asked.

This Scheme is voluntary ( currently), and Practices have to undergo an Inspection every 4 years to be accredited. If you are interested enough to flick/read it you will realise not many businesses are regulated to the same extent by their own governing body, in fact most businesses do not have a regulatory body, just the legal requirements that apply to all.

As you will appreciate this can put additional burdens on the practices that do conform to these standards, both in workload and financial. And before someone says what additional burden does putting up a price list cause, I am referring to the whole practice scheme, which has been set up to try and ensure that practices / vets are giving the best possible service to their clients.

It is simple to check if your local practice submits themselves to the scheme, they should have a sign up at the door.

As for contracts, well some practices do operate health schemes etc, which is a contract of sorts. But that unfortunately has some pitfalls, such as clients cancelling standard orders that have been set up to help them spread the costs, of a year's worth of health care. Which leaves the practice the option of debt collection issues, small claims courts etc. consequently this frankly leaves a lot of practices disillusioned.

The prospect of drawing up more formal contracts would frankly not be viable in most cases, although some "contracts" can and are drawn up with the very large agricultural clients.

regards,

HL

 

[Apache]

Got to get this to 100 posts!

I have noticed a real tendency for the people who complain the loudest about price are never the ones spending the most. I've had 2 farmers really moan at me about vet prices this year and neither feature in my top 100 spending farms!

I think sometimes these discussions come out of people feeling guilty/embarrassed that they have an animal they know needs treatment and they will struggle to pay for that treatment. I think some of the complaining comes out as a means of venting frustration.