Want to better understand terminal ballistics for deer stalking - where to look

[angusb1]

Suggest you get out there and shoot some deer as that will teach you more then you will ever read.

Limit yourself to ranges you are comfortable shooting at as we are all different. There are lots who disagree with head shooting and lots who donts...you make your choices and live with the consequences.

I shoot 6.5 Creed and .243 on the deer and whilst I only shoot limited numbers I learn more each time. Frankly, the only guarantee to drop an animal on the spot is a head or neck shot, or a shot that takes out the 2 front shoulders. I have shot fallow at 50 yards that have run 20 yards and yet virtually identical bullet placement at 300 yards and the deer took 2 steps...as has been mentioned deer dont read the same books.

This is good advice, get out there and shoot some deer. Think about what kind of bullet you are shooting them with and how fast the bullet is likely to be going when it hits them. When you aren't shooting deer have a read of Nathan Foster's knowledge base, it won't do you any harm. Then you can form your own opinions from experience and gain some understanding of how bullet construction and terminal velocity affect how fast the deer you shoot are likely to die and how far they may run. It's not rocket science and deer don't always react the same way to the same shot but I am always happy to listen to what people who have shot literally thousands of deer have to say on the topic.

In practice in the UK you are usually going to be shooting deer within the mean point blank range of your rifle and unless you are using a very frangible or very tough bullet it will kill deer effectively as long as you hit them in the right place. Thinking about the type of bullet you use and where you put it is no bad thing though.

 

[Edinburgh Rifles]

Not being funny but the data set most recreational stalkers can generate in a year and the huge number of variables from awareness, angle, perceived impact vs actual impact. bullet path through carcase, vertical deflection, horizintal deflection etc etc.......you would need to shoot for years before drawing any conclusion from your results

 

[Mike1979]

This is good advice, get out there and shoot some deer. Think about what kind of bullet you are shooting them with and how fast the bullet is likely to be going when it hits them. When you aren't shooting deer have a read of Nathan Foster's knowledge base, it won't do you any harm. Then you can form your own opinions from experience and gain some understanding of how bullet construction and terminal velocity affect how fast the deer you shoot are likely to die and how far they may run. It's not rocket science and deer don't always react the same way to the same shot but I am always happy to listen to what people who have shot literally thousands of deer have to say on the topic.

In practice in the UK you are usually going to be shooting deer within the mean point blank range of your rifle and unless you are using a very frangible or very tough bullet it will kill deer effectively as long as you hit them in the right place. Thinking about the type of bullet you use and where you put it is no bad thing though.

Lots of good points.

Personally I think we can massively overcomplicate things with little need. Ive moved to non toxic in the last year and never once looked at the velocity of the rounds . I tried a couple of different types, got sensible sub 1"MOA groups and cracked on albeit slightly moving POA forward a touch if chest shooting.

Just about to go down the rabbit hole of reloading so my approach will definitely change on the ammo front.

 

[muddy42]

Very simplistically, I find a heavily "meat damaged" deer wont run as far and vice versa. I've always thought that chasing low meat damage and deer that fall over on the spot is fairly fruitless.

 

[Mike1979]

Very simplistically, I find a heavily "meat damaged" deer wont run as far and vice versa. I've always thought that chasing low meat damage and deer that fall over on the spot is fairly fruitless.

Interesting but not my experience. Obviously if you exclude head shots where there is no meat damage and animal drops on the spot....Dropped fallow with double lung shots and virtually no damage, and had animals run on 20 yards with a bust front shoulder and a lot of meat damage.

So many factors that come into play, and so many differing stories Every days a school day.

 

[25 Sharps]

Suggest you get out there and shoot some deer as that will teach you more then you will ever read.

Limit yourself to ranges you are comfortable shooting at as we are all different. There are lots who disagree with head shooting and lots who donts...you make your choices and live with the consequences.

I shoot 6.5 Creed and .243 on the deer and whilst I only shoot limited numbers I learn more each time. Frankly, the only guarantee to drop an animal on the spot is a head or neck shot, or a shot that takes out the 2 front shoulders. I have shot fallow at 50 yards that have run 20 yards and yet virtually identical bullet placement at 300 yards and the deer took 2 steps...as has been mentioned deer dont read the same books.

I have only shot 2 deer with my 300 PRC, largely because out to 300 yards my .280 has virtually identical trajectory and plenty of energy to do its job when it gets there, plus as below, terminal effects are a little too emphatic, even at reasonable range! However once I got a load sorted for the 300 I was keen to try it in the field.

The first was on a roe doe, 289 yards, perfect broad side engine room shot - load was a 225 ELD-M achieving 2860 fps at the muzzle - that's a soft (ish) jacketed 225 gr bullet with an impact energy of around 3200 ft-lb on an sub 30 kg animal. Myself and my shooting buddy fully expected the deer to fold on the spot , she didn't, she did a 50 or 60 yard loop in the field with the 2 bucks she was with and disappeared into the hedge with them - I couldn't believe it and thought I had missed! However, as often happens, she had piled up within the first obstacle, in the hedge against a hawthorn trunk on my permission boundary. On inspection the heart was destroyed, there was a tennis ball sized exit with a lung hanging out, covered in rumen contents.

As you say, deer most definitely don't read the rule book when it comes to dying!

 

[25 Sharps]

Very simplistically, I find a heavily "meat damaged" deer wont run as far and vice versa. I've always thought that chasing low meat damage and deer that fall over on the spot is fairly fruitless.

See my post above.

I like Yew tree bullets as they do a lot of damage - deer will often run 50-60 yards with no heart and smashed lungs, sometimes further.

 

[jcampbellsmith]

The Deer Initiative | Culling deer is worth a read, especially the clock diagram.

Regards

JCS

 

[BigT]

It’s a fascinating rabbit hole you can get lost in. I would suggest looking into info from as many sources as possible and filtering them, which granted becomes easier the more you get to know about it

Some people like pretty fragile bullets that upset easily and make big relatively shallow holes

Some people like controlled expansion bullets that make deep narrow wounds.

The more I look at it the more I learn they’re both right , the situation just determines who’s more right
Even though they often think the others are completely misguided or worse

 

[Edinburgh Rifles]

Very simplistically, I find a heavily "meat damaged" deer wont run as far and vice versa. I've always thought that chasing low meat damage and deer that fall over on the spot is fairly fruitless.

Not my experience either
Have recently recovered some horrific carcasses both shot by me and by clients

Most recent was a roe shot at 270m with a 6.5-284
Front legs only attached by loose skin
Not a single rib intact, huge damage to spine and blood clotting stretching back to haunches

That’s a bullet that should be doing a little over 2750fps terminally

It ran 30-40yds into thick cover

 

[Selous]

I’m not sure that muzzle energy is as important as how fast that energy is transferred to the tissues. I find deer drop far faster with .30 calibre cartridges like .308, .30-06 and .300WSM than 6.5mm cartridges like 6.5x55 or 6.5x47 given similar bullet construction. Personally I like bullets that expand very fast but remain intact for most stalking (Barnes TTSX) but use fragmenting bullets for hill stalking where ranges can be extended (Yew Tree TLR)

 

[Tim.243]

I’m not sure that muzzle energy is as important as how fast that energy is transferred to the tissues. I find deer drop far faster with .30 calibre cartridges like .308, .30-06 and .300WSM than 6.5mm cartridges like 6.5x55 or 6.5x47 given similar bullet construction. Personally I like bullets that expand very fast but remain intact for most stalking (Barnes TTSX) but use fragmenting bullets for hill stalking where ranges can be extended (Yew Tree TLR)

What people don't understand is the skin/hide of deer is quite thin then the gap between the soft ribs also is very thin, lungs are soft as a sponge with the heart being the toughest part inside, any deer .240 > round is going to punch a hole in those body parts. Put any .240 > 7mm round in that spot and the result will broken ribs hole in the heart/lungs which is what you need.
Miss or just clip then is when they run and people blame the round/stats. 1 size 6 pellet under the chin of a pheasant and it will fall out the sky
1 pellet and break a wing and it will land then run. Same round 2 different results.

 

[Mungo]

Not my experience either
Have recently recovered some horrific carcasses both shot by me and by clients

Most recent was a roe shot at 270m with a 6.5-284
Front legs only attached by loose skin
Not a single rib intact, huge damage to spine and blood clotting stretching back to haunches

That’s a bullet that should be doing a little over 2750fps terminally

It ran 30-40yds into thick cover

What was it you said above about sample size?

 

[angusb1]

I’m not sure that muzzle energy is as important as how fast that energy is transferred to the tissues. I find deer drop far faster with .30 calibre cartridges like .308, .30-06 and .300WSM than 6.5mm cartridges like 6.5x55 or 6.5x47 given similar bullet construction. Personally I like bullets that expand very fast but remain intact for most stalking (Barnes TTSX) but use fragmenting bullets for hill stalking where ranges can be extended (Yew Tree TLR)

That may well be due to the increase in the effectiveness of energy transfer due to the larger meplat or frontal area of the .30 calibre cartridges over the 6.5s. It is why I shoot a .358 calibre rifle for the woodland reds I don't want to run far.

 

[Selous]

That may well be due to the increase in the effectiveness of energy transfer due to the larger meplat or frontal area of the .30 calibre cartridges over the 6.5s. It is why I shoot a .358 calibre rifle for the woodland reds I don't want to run far.

I’m a believer in frontal area myself. Particularly with a bullet that expands quickly

 

[TheOldTool]

Lots of very interesting and useful replies here, thanks, still digesting and understanding……so how does the incoming lead ban also tie in to some of the mooted cartridges that people have put forwards? Do all copper bullets narrow the options?

 

[smokey]

Hi, as title - I am a newcomer to the subject, using a 6.5mm creedmoor and .308. I want to read up and better understand terminal ballistics and the pros and cons in relation to carcass damage, kill certainty and suitability for stalking on Roe and Fallow at ranges out to 300m. Where is a good place to start? I have done some googling and found lots of forum posts etc but a lot are between people who have a knowledge base I don’t yet have. I am after some starter reading or viewing and some pointers for stuff after that. Thanks…….

Only Bullets kill deer ,Please do not get wrapped up in all the tables and charts as they are only good for one specific point .
Your bullet choice should be influenced by the game you are shooting I would hope you are on the way to becoming a deer manager/deer stalker .
Not a deer sniper blowing the legs off animals at extreme distance and using them for target practice?

 

[Bavarianbrit]

My furthest shot on roe has been a measured 147m, for me they are too small a target for sniping into the next county.

 

[TheOldTool]

Only Bullets kill deer ,Please do not get wrapped up in all the tables and charts as they are only good for one specific point .
Your bullet choice should be influenced by the game you are shooting I would hope you are on the way to becoming a deer manager/deer stalker .
Not a deer sniper blowing the legs off animals at extreme distance and using them for target practice?

100% the former - my original post was precipitated by the fact that the bullets I am / was using were almost "too good". Deer were dropping no problem, but carcass damage was more than my mentor was happy with, as he game dealers all the shot deer. And the bruising/blood/ tissue damage was going to reduce the price he got. So I wanted to try and get a bit more of a mid ground - a bullet that still gave max chance of a clean ethical kill, but with less damage......

What has become clear is that one man's ideal bullet / target / range combo is another mans no go....I was given the Sako blades by a very knowledgeable deer management professional and told they would be perfect....and indeed, they were.....just with too much carcass damage at the range / deer / shot placement they are used at. If you are not focused on the cleanest carcass possible, then you can of course just worry about getting the cleanest, quickest kill.

 

[Tim.243]

100% the former - my original post was precipitated by the fact that the bullets I am / was using were almost "too good". Deer were dropping no problem, but carcass damage was more than my mentor was happy with, as he game dealers all the shot deer. And the bruising/blood/ tissue damage was going to reduce the price he got. So I wanted to try and get a bit more of a mid ground - a bullet that still gave max chance of a clean ethical kill, but with less damage......

What has become clear is that one man's ideal bullet / target / range combo is another mans no go....I was given the Sako blades by a very knowledgeable deer management professional and told they would be perfect....and indeed, they were.....just with too much carcass damage at the range / deer / shot placement they are used at. If you are not focused on the cleanest carcass possible, then you can of course just worry about getting the cleanest, quickest kill.

What you are missing is that blood pools and migrates out into the outer tissues, so deer are transported "flat" in a tray/plasters bath as you have put a hole or 2 with an exit then there will be 3 places as you have bled the deer.
The blood has to go some where and it will run to the lowest point and seep through and that will be where the holes are.
This is correct as you head/neck shoot a deer then there is no place for it to seep into any exit hole and spread to the what is called "bruising"
We put a number of Fallow into a game dealer in the season and I can assure you there is never a question of bruising!
There are factors for deductions saddle shot high fat content on early season fallow, smashed shoulders, hot deer (as they do loose weight) when they cool down.
Game dealers inspect/weigh on intake and the lads report to the office on the above I have just typed

A mid size fallow will not lay flat in a P/bath even with the legs off and in the transport time the blood will pool that is why many have a grate in the tray. I don't take the back legs off as they make good handles to pull the tray out when back home.


Less room with 2 as an example.