WATOK liscensing

[nick100]

https://www.gov.uk/guidance/get-a-certificate-of-competence-or-licence-to-slaughter-or-kill-animals

How is this going to affect stalking/culling in parks ?
We are in the process of setting up a park, so does any one know any thing about the training/assessment criteria to get the certificate ?

 

[levigsp]

So It doesn't effect you as you are using a free bullet.

 

[nick100]

[h=3]I read it as you do, so does the NGO magazine.[/h]
[h=3]When you don’t need a WATOK licence[/h]You don’t need a WATOK licence if you:

• kill livestock at home to be eaten by your family
• are supervised by a vet
• are supervised by a WATOK or relevant CoC licence holder
• kill an animal in an emergency
• are a vet, killing an animal as part of your job
• kill surplus chicks or embryos in hatchery waste
• kill animals for public health, animal health, animal welfare or environmental reasons
• kill an animal in a field using a free bullet, if the animal won’t be eaten by people
• kill poultry by cervical dislocation where there are no other methods available and the bird won’t be eaten by people - you must do this on the farm where the bird was reared
• kill an animal for reasons that aren’t covered by the EU regulations, eg hunting or fishing

 

[nick100]

Sorry Norma, nothing came up when I posted. Where is your thread, any interesting replies/views ?

 

[2130martin]

As I understand it,the difference is between Park Deer(deemed as wild animals) versus Farmed Deer(ear tagged etc),Free bullet or not if its going for Human consumption from, a Park, a COC isnt required whereas,from a Farm, COC is required........

Is that how others see it? Its how my local DEFRA Vet explained it to me.....

 

[Bandit Country]

I read it as you do, so does the NGO magazine.
When you don’t need a WATOK licence
You don’t need a WATOK licence if you:

• kill animals for public health, animal health, animal welfare or environmental reasons

I would suggest that culling park deer is for both animal welfare and environmental reasons. If park deer aren't culled, numbers would rise until both animal health and welfare was compromised through lack of food. Over browsing/grazing of the park area would certainly damage the environment. QED?

 

[2130martin]

[/LIST]

I would suggest that culling park deer is for both animal welfare and environmental reasons. If park deer aren't culled, numbers would rise until both animal health and welfare was compromised through lack of food. Over browsing/grazing of the park area would certainly damage the environment. QED?

That would be fine as long as the carcase doesnt go into the human food chain....

 

[DamaDama.243]

I have spoken to the BDS, NGO and the BDFPA about this. The BDS hadn't heard about it. The NGO and BDFPA both had different answers. NGO said you would need the WATOK licence and the BDFPA said you wouldn't. All up in the air at the moment. All said they would contact me and let me know as soon as they had any more info.

 

[Bandit Country]

That would be fine as long as the carcase doesnt go into the human food chain....

Why is that? I read the list as exactly that - a list of individual, specific circumstances where a WATOK licence isn't required. I don't believe it is a pick 'n mix list whereby you have to meet all/some/a few (?) of the bullet points in the list. Just one of them will do?

It's worth reading the online blurb:

You must have either a WATOK licence or a CoC to carry out any of the relevant operations below and you either:

• work as a knackerman or at a knacker’s yard
• slaughter small numbers of poultry or rabbits
• cull animals on farm (except when an animal is killed in an emergency - ie because it’s injured)

The relevant operations are:

• restraining animals for stunning or killing
• stunning animals
• assessing if stunning has worked
• shackling or hoisting live animals
• bleeding live animals
• pithing of a stunned animal and checking this is effective

If you cull a deer in a park you are clearly not a knackerman and not slaughtering small numbers of poultry or rabbits. The point of contention might be around whether a deer park is a 'farm' or not. (I would say not - but what do i know?).

However, even if you do need a WATOK, the 'relevant operations' it covers are restraining, stunning, assessing if stunning has worked, hoisting live animals, bleeding live animals and pithing. In 17 years of deer stalking I've never done any of these operations (and yes I do have my DSC2!) If anyone is restraining live animals, stunning them, hoisting up live animals, bleeding live animals and pithing them I would respectfully suggest they're not doing their stalking properly? Personally, I prefer my deer dead on the ground before getting hands on.

 

[Bandit Country]

Irrespective of the question is a deer park a farm or not, this may not bode well for the future. If we end up with a requirement for WATOK or CoC to cull deer in parks it doesn't take much of a stretch to argue that similar rules should apply to any killing of large mammals. It's worth looking at the fee structure to obtain a WATOK:

The vet will give you a ‘certificate of assessment’ once they’re satisfied you can do these without causing avoidable pain, suffering or distress.

The vet will charge you the following for the assessment:

• £76 for the first 30 minutes
• £21 for each additional 30 minutes

You must also pay any costs for the vet to travel to your location.

Once you have the certificate of assessment, you can apply for a WATOK licence. It costs £25.

My nearest APHA Field Service Office is in Worcester, over 40 miles and an hour plus away, so God knows how much it would cost...

Is this another one of the 'thousand cuts' that will eventually do for all shooting sports?

 

[Grant.N]

I have a full COC licence.
I would contact the FSA at York and ask the question.

 

[2130martin]

I have a full COC licence.
I would contact the FSA at York and ask the question.

Which elements for which species have you got covered?
Is it for deer or Farm animals?

 

[Grant.N]

It's for poultry in a EEC plant.

 

[Old-YOP]

From the earlier 'training' thread:

Right now APHA won't consider an application for an assessment of competence to obtain a WATOK licence for the culling of park deer because they say "Park deer are usually considered wild animals, unlike farmed deer, and there is no requirement to hold a WATOK licence in order to cull them with firearms."

I referred them to a copy of the NGO magazine article, so that's being discussed by them internally as we speak.

In the meantime I said "what about a WATOK ticket for park and farmed deer?" to which the response was:

"We do not carry out assessment of competence for farmed deer, because you would need a Certificate of Competence rather than a WATOK licence for that purpose. So you will need to contact the Food Standards Agency who can provide you with information on how to proceed for that.

If you need a Certificate of Competence, and you obtain one then you will be able to cull park deer as well under that certificate, you would not need a Watok licence, if after all it is decided that there is a need for one. "

All copied to BDFPA, so hopefully it will be fully clarified in due course.

 

[L1A1]

The way the I read it is that this applies only to SLAUGHTERMEN and the duties they carry out. and has nothing to do with Deer Stalking.

 

[Old-YOP]

The way the I read it is that this applies only to SLAUGHTERMEN and the duties they carry out. and has nothing to do with Deer Stalking.

Notes from the APHA | FSA | DEFRA application for a WATOK license:

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

* Summary of operations and equipment - red meat.

* Large Game (includes feral wild boar, alpacas, deer, llamas, guanaco)

* 13. Firearm with free projectile.

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

So, that's us. Apparently if park deer were routinely provided with supplementary feedstuff, then we'd need the license. APHA thinks that isn't the case, hence park deer are considered wild (as opposed to farmed), hence no license required.

For now.

 

[L1A1]

Direct quote from the relevant EU legislation.[TABLE="width: 100%"]
[TR]
[TD="colspan: 1"]14)[/TD]
[TD="colspan: 1"]Hunting or recreational fishing activities take place in a context where conditions of killing are very different from the ones used for farmed animals and hunting is subject to specific legislation. It is therefore appropriate to exclude killings taking place during hunting or recreational fishing from the scope of this Regulation[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
legislation.

 

[howa243]

Direct quote from the relevant EU legislation.[TABLE="width: 100%"]
[TR]
[TD]14)[/TD]
[TD]Hunting or recreational fishing activities take place in a context where conditions of killing are very different from the ones used for farmed animals and hunting is subject to specific legislation. It is therefore appropriate to exclude killings taking place during hunting or recreational fishing from the scope of this Regulation[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
legislation.

Ahhh the EU. Goody. Brexit.

 

[Old-YOP]

It is therefore appropriate to exclude killings taking place during hunting or recreational fishing from the scope of this Regulation.

So what would you call a planned cull of park deer? Stalking? Field slaughtering? A job?

You need to be 100% sure of exactly what all that means to keep on the right side of the apparatchiks from Brussels, because those (over-paid & un-elected) folks in the EU can be very hot on semantics.

If a WATOK ticket or CoC will have that covered, great, sign me up.

 

[Buchan]

I suspect deer were not considered in WATOK. I read the consultation document and have to confess to not noticing deer at all. I'll contact BDS and varied folk I know in APHA and FSA.