West Country Red Deer Stalking

[Keith Edmunds]

Sadly, the recent book 'Rural Wrongs' by Charlie Pye-Smith sees the return of some of the old divisions that we saw in the 80's and early 90's. Personally, I feel that any field-sport should be able to, when necessary, stand on its own merit and not need to besmirch a fellow sport to defend itself.

I would be interested to hear thoughts from West Country stalkers on the following statement.....

"As for red deer, the ban has transformed a community-based management activity in the West County into a pest control exercise or one for commercial gain, and there is evidence to suggest that the health of the herd is suffering as a result. Poor or reckless shooting can lead to wounding and an agonising death. With hunting with dogs, in contrast, the animal is either killed or it escapes".

What is the current situation? I would like to assume that the deer management is carried out with the professionalism, compassion and effectiveness that we have come to expect.

 

[tusker]

I have been visiting Exmoor and surrounding area for over 30 years and for the last 2 years have made it my home. I used to enjoy Stag hunting as it was before the ban but it is very different now. I have only been stalking here the last 2 years. These are my observations.
Most stag hunters still regard stalkers as "poachers" and there are some pubs here were I would not discuss stalking. I have met and been stalking with a local chap who is a professional stalker and it is his job. he dosent do trophy but calls it all management he has one land owner who has a zero tolerence of deer and will call him as soon as he sees any deer on his land. He has other owners who are not so hard.
We also have the situation were one owner of a large area has a huge herd many hundreds but for years has not allowed any stalking or hunting and he has now taken the decision to cull many of the hundreds.
Another problem is the fact that most of the deer population is transient . I have a farmer friend who has promised me stalking but the deer are never there 2 days running.
so in short , yes some people regard the deer as a pest, others recognise the fact that the red deer here are out of control and must be culled (many deer here have TB) all the stalkers I know are very good shots and all the deer go to the dealer.
we have far to many deer and with the best will in the world Stag hounds alone can not control the population.
Tusker

 

[Donkey Basher]

Sounds very reminiscent of the line taken re fox hunting

Before the ban my other half used to ride to hounds but she packed it up as being a normal 'working class' gal & with a 'gypsy' horse (actually a registered Appaloosa) she found she was becoming less & less welcome.

It seems, from the little information quoted above, that this 'entitled prejudice' persists amongst those that seek to protect something they enjoy but very likely does little if anything to effectively manage deer!

The farm I help manage is feeling the impact of the local hunt right now - so few landowners want them on their ground that they visit the same places very frequently & unfortunately we're in the middle so inevitably they end up in or around us, even though the landowner here doesn't want them on the farm. Last weekend they met about a mile east of us, this Saturday they're meeting about a mile south of us, then on Tuesday next week they're meeting about a mile east of us at the same place they met last Saturday!

Fair to say that if there's no deer about this Saturday morning & a fox happens to wander across my field of fire then a shot is likely to be fired!

There simply is no place in the world of deer management for people who cannot accept that theirs is not the only way to effectively control deer.

 

[JeffreyL]

‘ All field sports must stand together, you lot stand behind us’

 

[willie_gunn]

Sadly, the recent book 'Rural Wrongs' by Charlie Pye-Smith sees the return of some of the old divisions that we saw in the 80's and early 90's. Personally, I feel that any field-sport should be able to, when necessary, stand on its own merit and not need to besmirch a fellow sport to defend itself.

I would be interested to hear thoughts from West Country stalkers on the following statement.....

"As for red deer, the ban has transformed a community-based management activity in the West County into a pest control exercise or one for commercial gain, and there is evidence to suggest that the health of the herd is suffering as a result. Poor or reckless shooting can lead to wounding and an agonising death. With hunting with dogs, in contrast, the animal is either killed or it escapes".

What is the current situation? I would like to assume that the deer management is carried out with the professionalism, compassion and effectiveness that we have come to expect.

Personally I wouldn't take much issue with that quote.

Hunting on Exmoor has always been a community-based event, not just in the pursuit of the stag but also the fox. In my youth I remember when towns on Exmoor almost literally came to a halt because the hounds were meeting, it was that strongly supported. If you went out on the first morning of a week's holiday on Exmoor with the fox or stag hounds, even as a foot follower, you would find your diary had filled up come the evening! Of course those days are in many ways gone, not least because of the drastic changes in society in general, but I still have friends who travel down to Exmoor to hunt because of its unique characteristics. The only other place I've experienced anything similar is going out with the fell hounds in Cumbria. Hunting is simply ingrained in a subset of the local community.

Stalking, by contrast, is primarily a solitary activity, with little involvement from the broader community. There's nothing wrong with that, but stalking will never foster the broad community spirit or generate the economic impact that comes from hunting with hounds. For all its perceived ills, the passing of hunting will rip out a significant part of the heart of many rural communities. It is a similar case with grouse shooting - the public-facing image that attracts such criticism belies a network that does much to support local communities, both socially and financially, that have limited access to other options.

It is also a sad fact that, these days, many do see deer as little more than a pest, and there are also those who wish to exploit deer as a revenue-earning opportunity. As to poor or reckless shooting, the quote doesn't suggest all stalkers are like this. However there are enough reports on here about the state of some carcasses seen at game dealers, or of "head shots gone wrong", to make it difficult to argue that it doesn't take place.

Leaving aside the West Country, deer management in the UK can hardly boast that it is doing a fantastic job at managing the national herd, with numbers of deer at their highest ever. Naturally we will point out all those complications that make this so difficult - a lack of co-ordination of deer management activities, with some estates following a policy of "if it's brown it's down" whilst others don't want deer shot at all, restricted availability on access to land that holds deer, some stalkers with thousands of acres that they rarely visit or where they only shoot trophies whilst others struggle to get any stalking at all, unscrupulous guides charging silly money for stalking, poor price from AGHE's with no other outlet for the venison, increasing urban and peri-urban deer populations, etc.

My point being that we have plenty of problems of our own to sort out, before rushing to find fault - perceived or otherwise - in others.

 

[Keith Edmunds]

Personally I wouldn't take much issue with that quote.

Hunting on Exmoor has always been a community-based event, not just in the pursuit of the stag but also the fox. In my youth I remember when towns on Exmoor almost literally came to a halt because the hounds were meeting, it was that strongly supported. If you went out on the first morning of a week's holiday on Exmoor with the fox or stag hounds, even as a foot follower, you would find your diary had filled up come the evening! Of course those days are in many ways gone, not least because of the drastic changes in society in general, but I still have friends who travel down to Exmoor to hunt because of its unique characteristics. The only other place I've experienced anything similar is going out with the fell hounds in Cumbria. Hunting is simply ingrained in a subset of the local community.

Stalking, by contrast, is primarily a solitary activity, with little involvement from the broader community. There's nothing wrong with that, but stalking will never foster the broad community spirit or generate the economic impact that comes from hunting with hounds. For all its perceived ills, the passing of hunting will rip out a significant part of the heart of many rural communities. It is a similar case with grouse shooting - the public-facing image that attracts such criticism belies a network that does much to support local communities, both socially and financially, that have limited access to other options.

It is also a sad fact that, these days, many do see deer as little more than a pest, and there are also those who wish to exploit deer as a revenue-earning opportunity. As to poor or reckless shooting, the quote doesn't suggest all stalkers are like this. However there are enough reports on here about the state of some carcasses seen at game dealers, or of "head shots gone wrong", to make it difficult to argue that it doesn't take place.

Leaving aside the West Country, deer management in the UK can hardly boast that it is doing a fantastic job at managing the national herd, with numbers of deer at their highest ever. Naturally we will point out all those complications that make this so difficult - a lack of co-ordination of deer management activities, with some estates following a policy of "if it's brown it's down" whilst others don't want deer shot at all, restricted availability on access to land that holds deer, some stalkers with thousands of acres that they rarely visit or where they only shoot trophies whilst others struggle to get any stalking at all, unscrupulous guides charging silly money for stalking, poor price from AGHE's with no other outlet for the venison, increasing urban and peri-urban deer populations, etc.

My point being that we have plenty of problems of our own to sort out, before rushing to find fault - perceived or otherwise - in others.

Perhaps I should explain my own position. I have always been pro hunting and have followed Harriers and Foxhounds on foot and did take a trip to Exmoor in the 90's to watch the staghounds.

I was politically active in the late 80's and 90's defending hunting with hounds but never used to slag off shooting sports while defending hunting - although many did. Things certainly did become more united but recently I have seen a lot of pro-hunting with hounds comments, in the field-sports media, again taking a pot-shot at shooting sports in order to defend their position. For me, this is not acceptable. We should have moved past that.

Don't get me wrong, I fully appreciate the emotion behind statements and tactics. With trail hunting being banned in some areas, this really does look like the last ditch. However it would be foolish if that last hurrah brought about unwarranted, negative media attention upon another sector of the field-sports community and, as such, when such statements as the one quoted, appear in the public media domain, I believe that they should be rightly rebuked with facts - hence my questions regarding the current situation.

 

[Keith Edmunds]

Let's split that quoted statement down as I would be really keen to hear the view from those living in the area....

1.) Is the health of the West Country red deer population genuinely suffering, directly as a result of the hunting ban in 2004?

 

[Keith Edmunds]

Let's split that quoted statement down as I would be really keen to hear the view from those living in the area....

1.) Is the health of the West Country red deer population genuinely suffering, directly as a result of the hunting ban in 2004?

With hindsight, I probably shouldn't publicly ask that question. I suppose that desperate times call for desperate measures. More than happy for admin to remove this thread if it is felt to be too contentious.

 

[willie_gunn]

Perhaps I should explain my own position. I have always been pro hunting and have followed Harriers and Foxhounds on foot and did take a trip to Exmoor in the 90's to watch the staghounds.

I was politically active in the late 80's and 90's defending hunting with hounds but never used to slag off shooting sports while defending hunting - although many did. Things certainly did become more united but recently I have seen a lot of pro-hunting with hounds comments, in the field-sports media, again taking a pot-shot at shooting sports in order to defend their position. For me, this is not acceptable. We should have moved past that.

Don't get me wrong, I fully appreciate the emotion behind statements and tactics. With trail hunting being banned in some areas, this really does look like the last ditch. However it would be foolish if that last hurrah brought about unwarranted, negative media attention upon another sector of the field-sports community and, as such, when such statements as the one quoted, appear in the public media domain, I believe that they should be rightly rebuked with facts - hence my questions regarding the current situation.

I still don't see this as a campaign, orchestrated or otherwise, by one sector of the field-sports community against another.

It's one quote from one book, written by an author whom I doubt most will have even heard of, let alone read! He is offering his readership his opinions. Some of those opinions might well be controversial and, dare I say it, even expressed controversially for a reason. He is, after all, trying to sell his book. As the old saying goes, any publicity is good publicity!

 

[Keith Edmunds]

I still don't see this as a campaign, orchestrated or otherwise, by one sector of the field-sports community against another.

It's one quote from one book, written by an author whom I doubt most will have even heard of, let alone read! He is offering his readership his opinions. Some of those opinions might well be controversial and, dare I say it, even expressed controversially for a reason. He is, after all, trying to sell his book. As the old saying goes, any publicity is good publicity!

Jim Barrington has been using excerpts in his column within the Countryman's Weekly. The group 'Hunting Kind' are using parts of Pye-Smith's research and the book is being peddled to MP's. Sadly, I've thrown out the examples that have appeared in print. I have written back to the publications to give a balanced view.

I am probably just taking it a bit personally but it just feels like a backward step to those days I remember all to well when it was 'all for one, one for all and every man for himself'.

 

[willie_gunn]

Jim Barrington has been using excerpts in his column within the Countryman's Weekly. The group 'Hunting Kind' are using parts of Pye-Smith's research and the book is being peddled to MP's. Sadly, I've thrown out the examples that have appeared in print. I have written back to the publications to give a balanced view.

I am probably just taking it a bit personally but it just feels like a backward step to those days I remember all to well when it was 'all for one, one for all and every man for himself'.

Hats off to you for making the effort, and for seeking to present a balanced view.

Having had some involvement at County level with fieldsports organisations in the past, I only wish there were more people out there who cared enough to do so.

 

[Keith Edmunds]

Hats off to you for making the effort, and for seeking to present a balanced view.

Having had some involvement at County level with fieldsports organisations in the past, I only wish there were more people out there who cared enough to do so.

I've always said, the two sports that sat easiest with my moral compass were organised hare coursing (the greyhound clubs and the whippet club) and deer stalking. Many are stunned to think that hare coursing could be classed as humane but it really was and I loved every second and it hit me hard when it was thrown under the bus.

I love hearing our local foxhound pack in full cry and we are lucky enough to have regular meets on our doorstep. But......I will not throw shooting under the bus to protect fox-hunting - it has enough merit to hold its on. Sadly, urbanisation and roads becoming busier are the real death knell in many areas.

 

[willie_gunn]

I've always said, the two sports that sat easiest with my moral compass were organised hare coursing (the greyhound clubs and the whippet club) and deer stalking. Many are stunned to think that hare coursing could be classed as humane but it really was and I loved every second and it hit me hard when it was thrown under the bus.

I love hearing our local foxhound pack in full cry and we are lucky enough to have regular meets on our doorstep. But......I will not throw shooting under the bus to protect fox-hunting - it has enough merit to hold its on. Sadly, urbanisation and roads becoming busier are the real death knell in many areas.

My neighbour in the village, who I shot with regularly until he gave up a couple of years ago, was big into his coursing, and in his time had some very good hounds. He told me the same, and also that he rarely if ever had seen a hare knocked over, but then that was never the point of coursing. It is a sport that was sadly lost for all the wrong reasons.

I sadly fear that I will see the end of hunting with hounds, grouse shooting, and possibly even game shooting in general, at least on the scale that we see it today. So we must enjoy them while we can, and do whatever is in our power to protect them.

 

[CharlieT]

Let's split that quoted statement down as I would be really keen to hear the view from those living in the area....

1.) Is the health of the West Country red deer population genuinely suffering, directly as a result of the hunting ban in 2004?

Firstly I must say that Willie Gunn's post sums it up excellently.

In my view because hunting with a full pack can no longer legally take place has resulted in the deer hearding up, couple this with a few large land owners for their own reasons not permitting hounds on their land and the proliferation of driven game shooting has resulted in large herds concentrating in certain areas. This has resulted in poor health, much like Barronsdown where the same health problems happened.

 

[Keith Edmunds]

Firstly I must say that Willie Gunn's post sums it up excellently.

In my view because hunting with a full pack can no longer legally take place has resulted in the deer hearding up, couple this with a few large land owners for their own reasons not permitting hounds on their land and the proliferation of driven game shooting has resulted in large herds concentrating in certain areas. This has resulted in poor health, much like Barronsdown where the same health problems happened.

Thanks for the reply Charlie. Is there a reason why deer stalking is failing to reduce the numbers?

 

[CharlieT]

Thanks for the reply Charlie. Is there a reason why deer stalking is failing to reduce the numbers?

The majority of the large consentrations of deer are on areas of land that either dont permit stalking, encourage deer for big bucks trophies (with no thought of a management plan) or let them bide as they are very pro hunting.

I cant emphasise enough that many farmers and landowners, me being one, are still happy to keep deer for the hunt and wouldnt dream of allowing stalking. Couple that with hunting rights on a considerable acarage being owned by a pro hunting company and one begins to understand why stalking is a non starter.

 

[old keeper]

Thanks for the reply Charlie. Is there a reason why deer stalking is failing to reduce the numbers?

Perhaps a small factor is the large tracts of land run by "deer management societies" where a very small number of stalkers shoot over very large areas. If for example these areas were broken down into smaller areas and let to much larger numbers of stalkers the deer population would surely be more controlled.

 

[CharlieT]

Perhaps a small factor is the large tracts of land run by "deer management societies" where a very small number of stalkers shoot over very large areas. If for example these areas were broken down into smaller areas and let to much larger numbers of stalkers the deer population would surely be more controlled.

I'm not aware of any deer managemant society with shooting rights over large tracts of land. Can you point me in their direction ?

 

[old keeper]

If you notice my post put deer management societies in inverted commas. I should really have said very small groups of people holding stalking rights over large areas of land.

The Forestry Commission is an example where one or two stalkers operate over such large areas that it must be impossible to control deer numbers.

 

[CharlieT]

If you notice my post put deer management societies in inverted commas. I should really have said very small groups of people holding stalking rights over large areas of land.

The Forestry Commission is an example where one or two stalkers operate over such large areas that it must be impossible to control deer numbers.

The bulk of the FC land Croydon Hill and the surrounding area which totalls around 1400 ha plus a few other small lots across the moor. They actually do a good job in managing numbers as do the NT on their land.