What about my 410? No lead free offerings

[Flash G 74]

Hello, In 60 years of Shooting i have never seen any dead game die of Lead Poison ?? Wild Fowl maybe as they ingest the lead shot, But that is in the past with Steel shot only

 

[Conor O'Gorman]

So as per my post #49, are lead slugs currently on ticket for dispatch (non-recreational shooting)likely to be taken away do you think?

I don't know. The next stage of this process is the government response to the HSE proposals. As mentioned BASC argued for an exemption for humane dispatch but none was included in the final HSE proposals to the government to consider. The ammunition does not pose a risk to wildlife as the lead does not enter the environment.

 

[Conor O'Gorman]

cut off point, but not a problem for olympic hopefuls to still put down tonnes of lead shot, but obviously the birds know the difference if it comes out of the end of a gun used by an olympic hopeful and ignore it, but not a few grams from a 9mm garden gun.

then EU 6 million shooters may go lead free, do hope their is enough steel shot being produced.

So much contradictory statements in the HSE proposal, clearly several agendas at work.

Where those risks to birds can be controlled shooting should be allowed to continue with lead shot whether for Olympic hopefuls or the rest of us. Part of the reason for all the contradictory statements in the HSE report is because the HSE is making recommendations based not only on mitigating evidenced risks (some not so well evidenced!) but also enforcement considerations. Restrictions on the use and the sale of lead shot for target shooting as a means of enforcing restrictions on the use of lead shot for live quarry shooting were outside the scope of the HSE review and BASC argued that point during the consultations. However, that argument is perhaps academic at this point because now that we are in the political stage of the process, legislative proposals would take into account enforcement considerations. And let's not forget there are those lobbying for a ban on all lead ammunition asap regardless of evidence or the cliff edge impact of a sudden ban on shooting considering non-lead ammunition availability.

 

[Conor O'Gorman]

Guess there is none then....

Sorry, I didn't realise your question was aimed at me. It's absolutely your choice what to believe in based on what you see or don't see. It's not for me to try to convince you otherwise. People have been saying the same about avian flu outbreaks and asking where are all these millions of dead birds that have allegedly died. I know of some people convinced that the robin in their garden is the same robin for years and years as they have never found a dead one. Again, their choice what to believe and perhaps comforting to believe that 'their' robin is so long lived.

 

[Liveonce]

Sorry, I didn't realise your question was aimed at me. It's absolutely your choice what to believe in based on what you see or don't see. It's not for me to try to convince you otherwise. People have been saying the same about avian flu outbreaks and asking where are all these millions of dead birds that have allegedly died. I know of some people convinced that the robin in their garden is the same robin for years and years as they have never found a dead one. Again, their choice what to believe and perhaps comforting to believe that 'their' robin is so long lived.

did not birds wash up on the beaches due to avian flu? so the dead birds were seen then.

 

[enfieldspares]

And where, please, are all these "Old Pheasants' Refuges" where pheasants may live out a long an happy retirement? Three, four, five years old and more? The fact is that most pheasants and any other birds that may ingest lead as grit will be long dead from predators or other causes - even being shot during the season - than they will be from ingesting lead. It's the same sort silly damn nonsense that was tried when hunting was banned about hounds being put down if hunting were banned...where were all the "Old Hounds' Homes"? Next door to the "Old Pheasants' Refuges" just past the Three Little Pigs and along the road from where the Little Red Hen lives? Those that talk of the robin in the garden should regard the numbers of such killed by domestic cats before blaming lead shot.

 

[Conor O'Gorman]

did not birds wash up on the beaches due to avian flu? so the dead birds were seen then.

I didn't see them myself. Did you?

 

[Liveonce]

I didn't see them myself. Did you?

Google is your friend. .


Dead birds from avian flu have been found on beaches across the UK, including in Scotland, Pembrokeshire, and North Berwick. The disease has impacted breeding colonies and caused "huge losses" of seabirds.

May be the ones that die of lead poisoning are so heavy they sink in the water

 

[Conor O'Gorman]

Google is your friend. .

View attachment 405797
Dead birds from avian flu have been found on beaches across the UK, including in Scotland, Pembrokeshire, and North Berwick. The disease has impacted breeding colonies and caused "huge losses" of seabirds.

May be the ones that die of lead poisoning are so heavy they sink in the water

How do you know that bird in the picture died of avian flu? It could have just died of old age or any number of diseases?

 

[Liveonce]

How do you know that bird in the picture died of avian flu? It could have just died of old age or any number of diseases?

I personally don’t but guess they were collected and tested by the same scientists that are saying lead kills birds.
Or are you now denying that avian flu caused birds to die.

Avian Flu / Bird Flu Updates

Avian flu, or bird flu, affects poultry & wild birds. This page answers some frequently asked questions about avian flu and reports on the most recent outbreaks

www.rspb.org.uk

 

[Conor O'Gorman]

I personally don’t but guess they were collected and tested by the same scientists that are saying lead kills birds.
Or are you now denying that avian flu caused birds to die.

Like you I assume that the scientists that would have done the tests even if I have not seen avian flu in birds first hand and not a single dead duck on my local pond even though there were hundreds there before the media started reporting avian flu outbreaks (but was that a coincidence, given the lack of any bodies?) Do you deny that lead shot ingestion causes birds to die?

 

[Conor O'Gorman]

That's a leading question, your mates with Starman aren't you?

To answer your earlier question yes, yes I have seen birds dying from bird flue. I've even seen them tumble out of the sky.
But I ain't never seen no bird dying of lead shot.

Being an engineer I work with maths and physical facts so could's, possibly's and theoretically's aren't worth a poop Conor.

Now I don't give a hoot on what the bull smells like you and your chums like to shovel but don't, don't think for a second I'm gonna swallow it and here's the nub Conor, shhh, I'm not alone....!

As I said already it's absolutely your choice what to believe in based on what you see or don't see. It's not for me to try to convince you otherwise. But I am curious to know given your assertion that you are an engineer working with "maths and physical facts" and not "possibly's and theoretically's" how do you know the birds you saw dying and 'tumble out of the sky' were dying from bird flu?

 

[Smellydog]

how do you know the birds you saw dying and 'tumble out of the sky' were dying from bird flu?

By matching known symptoms.
Not seen any lead poisoning symptoms though.
I have seen birds thriving around a lead mine though, does that count?

 

[Conor O'Gorman]

By matching known symptoms.
Not seen any lead poisoning symptoms though.
I have seen birds thriving around a lead mine though, does that count?

Thanks. What do you regard as the 'known symptoms' for avian flu that you tested for with these birds? What are the 'known symptoms' for lead poisoning that you also tested for with these birds?

 

[Triggermortis]

How many dead birds have the RSPB picked up on their reserves over the last year ,investigated cause of death and proven lead poisoning as cause of death?
If they had found any number of birds and with the amount and level of monitoring of reserves they (and the general public)do they would have we’d of all heard about it or am I not mistaken?

 

[Smellydog]

You won't get a common sense answer from BASC ( British Anti Shooting Conspiracies.org) because they are purely interested in protecting unsustainable mass shooting farm reared birds and dressing it up in a way they think will impress the a; the public but more importantly b; sway politicians via compromising and trade offs.
The trade off here, yet again, is the little shoot, the working class man. The pot hunter.
He has to suck it up so the city bankers can still have a day out in the country with his wealthy chums with the King and Prince Andrew.

It wasn't long ago Harriman was basically trashing 410's in a magazine article.....funny that, the timing etc....!

 

[Liveonce]

Do you deny that lead shot ingestion causes birds to die?

No, and I don’t think I have ever said otherwise. However it is the scope of the problem that lacks evidence, in that I agree wildfowl are at risk and hence the ban on lead shot we already have. I am not convinced there is a problem with shot falling on agriculture or pasture land. Given the many years the local clay ground has shot over, yet we see, buzzards, woodpeckers, robins, pigeons, crows, rooks. seagulls, rabbits, fox etc etc.

If the lead shot is such a problem today, then it will still be in another fifty years as even if they banned lead tomorrow it will still be on the clay ground, mind you if you walk the ground today I doubt you will see any. The majority of tye ground is managed grass.

 

[Smellydog]

After recieving a complaint via admin I will now be putting Mr O'Gorman on the ignored members list.

 

[Liveonce]

Will add however what the clay ground did ban many years back was plastic wads, because they never went away without effort to recover them, no such problem with fibre wads.

 

[Conor O'Gorman]

After recieving a complaint via admin I will now be putting Mr O'Gorman on the ignored members list.

I have not complained about you so you may wish to take responsibility for what you post and stop blaming everyone else, and indeed deflecting from queries about your comments about birds dying from avian flu which remain unanswered.