What am I doing wrong ? bleeding.

[charlieboy-shooter]

Hi,
Now in truth I’m embarrassed to ask this as I should know the answer but what am I doing wrong ? Regarding bleeding. Although I am self taught.
The last few deer I have shot and skinned have had in my mind excessive bleeding under the skin. Travelling to far back or down the legs.
All heart shot, which I know, seems to add to the issue.
All shot with copper bullets from the petal type expansion to more solid type. 90 - 150yd shots.

Graolloach performed on the ground. 1st incision into the chest the centre of the chest at base of the neck cut across to severe the carotid. Rear legs lifted to drain what I can before opening chest. Have also pushed on the diaphragm. I do not split the sternum but graolloach up through the abdomen, so to remove /cut the entire diaphragm the carcass is moved from one side to the other( remove all from anus to oesophagus. Lift rear legs and front legs to drain any pooled blood from the cavity. Where possible leave head / fore-end either at edge of ditch if possible but head end pointing down whilst I fetch sledge and chest cavity down. Transported home chest cavity down but laying horizontal.
Hang in larder and split chest. Often, open skin base of neck /inside leg joint. ( generally area around the shot ). But this may be 3 or so hours later.


The 1st image looked awful as before removing the front leg had blood in the outer sinue.
And can see how the blood travelled back towards the abdomen.

What am I doing wrong ?? I am only going to h/l shoot and I know shooting higher can reduce the bleeding but my automatic default shot means I generally hit the heart.
Can I bleed them better in the field and would splitting the chest whilst graolloaching help.
The deer are fallow and in truth I’ve never tried to hang one from a tree. To heavy for me.
Thanks
1st 2 pics. .308 solid. Next pics 6.5 petal type

 

[Tim.243]

Hi,
Now in truth I’m embarrassed to ask this as I should know the answer but what am I doing wrong ? Regarding bleeding. Although I am self taught.
The last few deer I have shot and skinned have had in my mind excessive bleeding under the skin. Travelling to far back or down the legs.
All heart shot, which I know, seems to add to the issue.
All shot with copper bullets from the petal type expansion to more solid type. 90 - 150yd shots.

Graolloach performed on the ground. 1st incision into the chest the centre of the chest at base of the neck cut across to severe the carotid. Rear legs lifted to drain what I can before opening chest. Have also pushed on the diaphragm. I do not split the sternum but graolloach up through the abdomen, so to remove /cut the entire diaphragm the carcass is moved from one side to the other( remove all from anus to oesophagus. Lift rear legs and front legs to drain any pooled blood from the cavity. Where possible leave head / fore-end either at edge of ditch if possible but head end pointing down whilst I fetch sledge and chest cavity down. Transported home chest cavity down but laying horizontal.
Hang in larder and split chest. Often, open skin base of neck /inside leg joint. ( generally area around the shot ). But this may be 3 or so hours later.
View attachment 304783View attachment 304784View attachment 304785View attachment 304786

The 1st image looked awful as before removing the front leg had blood in the outer sinue.
And can see how the blood travelled back towards the abdomen.

What am I doing wrong ?? I am only going to h/l shoot and I know shooting higher can reduce the bleeding but my automatic default shot means I generally hit the heart.
Can I bleed them better in the field and would splitting the chest whilst graolloaching help.
The deer are fallow and in truth I’ve never tried to hang one from a tree. To heavy for me.
Thanks

I bleed the mj/roe as I hang them up in woodland stalking then we carry on for a while get what we have shot and do them together. I do split the sternum as the lot rolls out in one right down to the chin.

 

[charlieboy-shooter]

The worst. Removed the front leg and shoulder as completely covered in blood

 

[Border]

Which cartridge/ bullet was it shot with? How far did it run after the shot?

 

[VSS]

I don't think you're doing anything wrong.
You could experiment with different ammo or different shot placement to see if that gives any improvement, but even so it's not unusual for a whole foreleg / shoulder to be virtually a write-off following a chest shot. You can salvage a lot by careful trimming.

 

[paulbshooting]

Grab your popcorn and prepare for incoming from others on here but your process is fine and its the copper bullets causing this as experienced similar. Found lots of similar blood shot and bruising damage, especially on fallow as think the copper bullet seems to do something odd compared to lead as it impacts the chest cavity, like a more intense shock wave, especially if on or close to the shoulder(s). Less damage from lead with the same shot placement. Just my findings over a reasonable qty of muntjac, roe and fallow. Like many I also went lighter weight and faster on switching to copper, which hindsight suggests was wrong. Both in 308 and 270 cal.

 

[Mossypaw]

Not sure of your description,

“ 1st incision into the chest the centre of the chest at base of the neck cut across to severe the carotid.”

Go straight in with a decent blade and have a good rootle about !

 

[lochty]

I'd say very little. That looks like bruising from impact / hydraulic shock when a bullet strikes bone. Think of it as gaining 2 loins, 2 haunches and some mince rather than losing the shoulders.

 

[.25-06]

As lochty say that brusing occured before it hit the ground.

I'd say very little. That looks like bruising from impact / hydraulic shock when a bullet strikes bone. Think of it as gaining 2 loins, 2 haunches and some mince rather than losing the shoulders.

 

[charlieboy-shooter]

Which cartridge/ bullet was it shot with? How far did it run after the shot?

Post 1, Pic 1 entry, Pic 2 exit, .308 130gr Fox classic. Run 10-15 yds. deer unaware.
Post 1 pic 3 exit, Pic 4 entry, 6.5x55 112gr drop to shot, deer unaware.
my Post 2 pic1, pic 2 think entry, 6.5x55 112gr, Run 20-30yds, deer aware 2nd one shot.

Like many I also went lighter weight and faster on switching to copper, which hindsight suggests was wrong. Both in 308 and 270 cal.

Yes have gone for the lighter bullets and hence, yes, probably faster than heavier and therefore more hydrostatic shock. So from a bleeding point you have probably hit the nail on the head.
Although the 6.5 is only 0.5 gr over the recommended start load as makers suggestion, which I can't for the life of me remember. Although I do not own an chronograph so don't actual know MV.

thanks

 

[75]

looks quite normal to me and I’d say it’s just pooling of blood between fascia after shot. How long were they left on the ground after the shot? Blood will pool between the membranes, generally on the lower side. The meat itself is probably really clean and unaffected.

I think suspended gralloch (and then left to hang for a bit) helps. Bleeding out does nowt in my opinion. The blood is already pooled in the chest cavity and if you’re gralloching immediately on getting to the carcass (I.e. within minutes of when you’d have poked it with a knife) then it makes no difference. Gralloching lets all that blood out much more easily than a couple of slits in the chest.

 

[Utectok]

I mean bleeding really is a complete wast of time if you do a full gralloch at the shot site. These carcasses have shot damage that’s all. Not unusual and changes to shot placement calibre or bullet help sometimes. Just one of those things I’d neck shoot under a 100m

 

[Klenchblaize]

On the surface of this post one might be forgiven for imagining an unhelpful encouragement to attempt head or neck shots to mitigate the vagaries of a monolithic-like copper projectile. Some might even say FMJ-like!

K

 

[HonestJohn]

change your bullet.

 

[TringSaint]

I do split the sternum and hold the deer by tail and head with open cavity facing down to allow as much blood to drain out as possible.
I try to do neck shots where I can to avoid the bruising / blood clot in the shoulder issue, but when I do a H&L shot, even though I do all of the above and have it hanging within an hour of so of being shot, I get the same issue.

I think the structure of the shoulder actively allows blood to collect between the blade and the rib cage, but as others have said, careful trimming gets around the worst of the blood clots.

But with head / neck shots I don’t get this issue.

 

[charlieboy-shooter]

I'd say very little. That looks like bruising from impact / hydraulic shock when a bullet strikes bone.

These carcasses have shot damage that’s all.

I don't think you're doing anything wrong.

So, that's good to hear.
After reading so much about how little shot damage there is with copper bullets. I then look at these carcasses. The one's I have shot, the blood. I just assumed I must be doing something wrong.
I want them to look as presentable as possible and I'm disappointed with the results. However based on the replies so far I guess its my perceived expectations, which are wrong, which are to high. Especially on a chest shot deer.

I’d say it’s just pooling of blood between fascia after shot.

Yes, apart from the lost leg most of the blood was between the skin and actual meat on all the deer, so the fascia as you say. I must say the 1st picture I had removed most of the blood so it appears the legs are clean and just the stain on the flank. The actual meat did look clean almost right up to the wound.
I have been trying but possibly need to condition myself to shoot slightly higher as there certainly appears to be less bleeding in the layer between the skin and meat with a slightly higher shot.

Think of it as gaining 2 loins, 2 haunches and some mince rather than losing the shoulders.

Yes, despite how I may have come across. I would rather lose a shoulder than have a green gralloch or worst still a lost deer.

Thank you all for your replies

.

 

[Freeforester]

Shot placement choice (to minimise damage), bullet speed, and weight/construction, all worth thinking about, but if you think that’s bad, you haven’t seen bad, really! How much should the venison dealer be giving for the example above?


Not my doing either, but it’s not hard to see why many folk aren’t too keen on cleaning up after themselves, so to speak!

 

[Selous]

My thoughts are that immediately after being shot the blood follows the path of least resistance. If that path is between the muscle layers then you get what the OP has posted. If there is an easier path for the blood to follow then you get less seepage between the muscle layers. Now if the entrance and exit holes were bigger would this reduce the severity of the seepage? Is the seepage worse where the temporary cavitation has separated the tissue planes between the muscles. Would a large diameter but slow expanding bullet ( I’m thinking .40 calibre plus) solve these issues? There are many things to test! But I would be interested in people’s experience with these things.

 

[Dunwaters]

You’ve done nothing wrong, that damage is typical of what I’d expect with a chest shot.
Hydrostatic shock spreads out from the permanent wound channel on impact and results in bruising between muscle layers, it can spread quite a bit from the wound site. It has nothing to do with your bleeding technique, it was there before the knife went in.
I’m not sure that changing ammo will help much either, try a couple of neck shots, you’ll still get some damage but it’ll be well away from the expensive bits.
Trim away as much of the damage as you can, there’ll often be a pocket of blood and maybe some rumen content between the ribs and shoulder blade, it goes off quickly and can taint the carcass.

 

[muddy42]

As above, nothing wrong there.
- Bullet and load is a a simple compromise, generally more meat damage = more knock down power, more blood trail and less runners and lost deer. There is no free lunch. Especially with copper, you are better with too much impact energy than too little.
- I generally hang the deer straight after the gralloch and open up the ribcage. This results in a lighter deer that is cleaner to transport, not sure it makes much difference to the meat.
- If there are no trees, I try and punch the knife into the sternum area a few times to bleed and face downhill. As above I'm not sure it makes that much difference.