Whats safest, muzzle up or down ?

[The tramp]

I always like to carry muzzle up, on full sling, muzzle / can taped,... I always remember hearing, "There are less aircraft around than there are feet"... & the recent Boar drives I have had the pleasure of, EVERYONE was carrying muzzle up & forward tilt.

I'd rather shoot myself in the foot, than have a 320gr bullet landing 'wherever' and possibly on/in somebody miles away, that's gonna do a lot of damage to whatever it lands on from the sky, and I could never forgive myself if I'd inadvertently killed somebody just because I was too idle to carry something to clear a plugged barrel with,so carried it muzzle up.

If it should discharge, and hits me, that's my fault for not being aware of where the noisy end is pointing.

'Never point your gun at something you wouldn't be happy putting a shot into' pointing up, that's a massive potential area for that shot to land in. The closer the 'target' the easier to 'hit', keeping it pointing to the ground, means your going to hit, the ground, immediately. Up in the air, somewhere within a few miles is going to get 'hit' in several seconds, fingers crossed it lands safely, and still on land you have the right to shoot, and not in the primary school playground.

Pete

 

[jubnut]

I use sticks and stalk muzzle up and I am quicker than Billy the kid

 

[Oh6]

I use sticks and stalk muzzle up and I am quicker than Billy the kid

Well if you try stalking muzzle down you'll be even quicker then jubnut...

Not only will you be quicker, but it also means less and more compact movement so you are less likely to be spotted.

 

[Mauser243]

Z-Aim muzzle up, have been for years, don't see the issue myself with going on to sticks, goes on pretty slick if you ask me, when you release the clip round she goes and on the sticks. but then that's just my opinion.

M

 

[widu13]

How about both? Muzzle up for comfort, muzzle down when it's raining or I need to control the muzzle.

With regards to safety, I reckon you have as much chance of hurting someone ricocheting off of something in or on the ground as you have by putting one in the sky. The odds of injury from a "high" discharge lessen dramatically dependent on the terrain/location.

So I'm going to sit on the fence and say both. I can see both arguments and both make perfect sense!

 

[ths84]

I used to carry muzzle down until I stacked it one day and landed on the rifle, now it goes muzzle up with z-aim sling strapping it to my body so it does not move and when I'm not looking around I keep my checking my safety is engaged out of habit.

Also I have short legs so it draps even the CMM4 mod through the crap when muzzle down

 

[nun_hunter]

Does anyone know of BASC have any guidance on this? ...

The BASC DSC1 manual I had last year states there are 3 acceptable positions, muzzle up, muzzle down (both over the rear of the shoulder) and over the front of the shoulder pointing down I think. All good depending on different terrains etc. I carry muzzle down due to a lot of low branches where I stalk so it easier getting under them rather than hearing the PING as the P8 crashes into a twig. Also as stated it creates a smaller silhouette for me when mounting so less chance of being spotted.

 

[Monkey Spanker]

Having stalked with more people than I care to remember, I have never had a muzzle pointed at me when walking behind a rifle being carried muzzle down. Most people these days have moderators and bipods and some have quite heavy barrels so the rifle has a natural tendency to 'want' to be muzzle down. This invariably leads to having a muzzle in your face when following a rifle being carried muzzle up! Most don't even realise they are doing it! Plugging a moderated barrel with mud is actually quite difficult. I'd much rather a ND went into the ground than in the air too! I always carry mine muzzle down.
MS

 

[finnbear270]

A rifle wanting to be muzzle down, when carried muzzle up should always be under the control of the hand on the"Butt", & no, not an arse butt!

 

[finnbear270]

I really could not envisage a round through either of my feet, in preference to a Skyward discharge!, As in Skywards , Upwards, As in not in an untoward angle across the fieldwards!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[Deerstalkermark]

Just out of interest has anybody had or know of anybody having had an ND while the rifle was slung on their shoulder?
Has there ever been anybody injured from an ND dropping from the sky?
There is a lot of granite where I stalk and I wouldn't want an ND anywhere near my feet and would rather take the extremly low chances with the sky!!

 

[Monkey Spanker]

A rifle wanting to be muzzle down, when carried muzzle up should always be under the control of the hand on the"Butt", & no, not an arse butt!

So you don't use binoculars then? That's normally when it swings back. Sticks in one hand, binos in the other, and as they are raised the rifle drops backwards and I get a face full of muzzle!
My feet also stick out forward and not sideways!
Have a look at how many people are killed each year by 'celebratory fire' and then tell me that a skyward ND is still safe!? Even when fired directly upwards a 7.62 (.308) bullet falls back to earth at a terminal velocity of about 33 ft/lbs which is the equivalent of having a decent FAC air rifle fired into the top of your swede! How would you fancy that for a hat?
Anything less than vertical is far more likely to come down at an even more lethal trajectory! Risking the lives of others over the unlikely event of shooting yourself in the foot could be viewed as somewhat selfish?!!!!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Celebratory_gunfire
MS

 

[roedeerred]

For once I agree with MS
I have followed a few people who tried carrying muzzle up when on A W stalks being 6ft tall it is somewhat disturbing to see the cone of a bullet down a shiny new barrel

 

[enfieldspares]

Oh no. Not this old chestnut...again? As I've written before militaries have spent huge amounts of time on researching this because of the wish to assess the risk of bullets falling to earth from high angle anti-aircraft defence causing casualties amongst the very troops that have just fired them.

There's documented conclusions in most of the major sources of serious small arms research from the 1920s and 1930s and not the made for TV pseudo science of the American "Mythbusters" programme.

So here's something from a RESPECTED American authority:

From"Official Report of Vertical Time of Flight for Small Arms Ammunition" (U.S. Army Ordnance Office) expain this.

"The firing platform at Miami was about ten feet square. There was a shield of thin armor plate over the heads of the men at the gun. Out of more than 500 shots fired after adjusting the gun so as to bring the shots as nearly as possible onto the platform, only 4 shots hit it, and one more fell into the boat. One of the shots that hit the platform was a Service .30-'06, 150 grain flat based bullet which came down base first and bounced into the water after striking the edge of the lower platform. It left a mark about 1/16 inch deep in the soft pine board. Two more bullets struck in a pail of water beside the machine gun.

"It was concluded from these tests that the return velocity was about 300 feet per second. With the 150 grain bullet, this corresponds to an energy of 30 foot pounds. Previously the Army had decided that on the average, an energy of 60 foot pounds is required to produce a disabling wound.

"Calculations indicate that the 150 grain .30 caliber Service bullet fired straight up at a muzzle velocity of 2700 feet per second will rise 9000 feet, taking about 18 seconds to do it; and that it takes 31 seconds to return to earth, the last few thousand feet of the fall being at a nearly constant speed of a bit over 300 feet per second.

"If this same bullet were fired in a vacuum upwards at the same velocity, it would rise to a height of 113,000 feet. It would take nearly 84 seconds to make the ascent, and exactly the same time to come back, return with the same velocity that it started with".
Source(s):

Hatcher's Notebook, by Maj. Gen. Julian S. Hatcher. Copyright 1947, The Military Service Publishing Company. Third Edition, 2nd Printing. April 1966, pp. 510-518

 

[Craggy]

Always up

Cus iam not very tall and it makes to much noise with mod dragging on floor

 

[PointBlank]

Surely the chances of having an ND while it is on your shoulder with the safety on are negligible. If you are so concerned that you might have an ND that you carry muzzle down then how dare you take the risk of a having a cartridge chambered in any case.....
I carry muzzle up, except when there is overhanging branches then it is down and always with a round chambered

 

[Deerstalkermark]

Celebratory gun fire is usually multiple rounds(10's, 100's or even 1000's) fired above the heads of thousands of people out on the streets in urban areas and so not surprising people get hit on the head occasionally!!
Me thinks if I had multiple ND's into the ground while out stalking it wouldn't be long before I sustained an injury. Into the sky in rural area - vanishingly small chance of hitting somebody. But then maybe I am just selfish!!

 

[VSS]

The implication of this thread is that everyone always carries their rifle - either muzzle up or muzzle down, it matters not - with a chambered round!
Surely that's a no-no? I wouldn't like to always be depending on my safety catch, and would prefer to keep my ammo under the bolt at least until the quarry had been spotted, or I was safely ensconced in a high seat or some other vantage point from where the muzzle was always directed at my chosen backstop.

However, I admit I'm yet to stalk on my own with my own rifle, and when I've been out with other folk, using their rifles, I've let myself be guided by what was their usual practice.

 

[PointBlank]

The implication of this thread is that everyone always carries their rifle - either muzzle up or muzzle down, it matters not - with a chambered round!
Surely that's a no-no? I wouldn't like to always be depending on my safety catch, and would prefer to keep my ammo under the bolt at least until the quarry had been spotted, or I was safely ensconced in a high seat or some other vantage point from where the muzzle was always directed at my chosen backstop.

However, I admit I'm yet to stalk on my own with my own rifle, and when I've been out with other folk, using their rifles, I've let myself be guided by what was their usual practice.

You will find if you are woodland stalking you have to have a cartridge chambered because you only have a very short amount of time to quietly and calmly get the rifle onto sticks and take the shot.

 

[Caberhill]

Muzzle up because of the dog, any how before I got a moderator it was near impossible to keep it muzzle down as butt end was considerably heavier than the barrel end, just saying...