When does a non-lead bullet become armour piercing?

[stonepark]

Under the 1968 Firearms Act Sect 5 1(a) (e)any ammunition for military use which consists in or incorporates a missile designed, on account of its having a jacket and hard-core, to penetrate armour plating, armour screening or body armour;


Well any bullet is for military use and copper or brass bullets are designed to retain a hard core (i.e. retain weight) and whilst not steel are significantly harder than lead.

At what point do these non-toxic bullets become armour or semi-armour piercing as they can punch through screening, armour plating and body armour that would have stopped a lead bullet?

 

[Heym SR20]

Shoot a copper hunting bullet at a steel plate target and you usually just get a round copper coloured mark on the target. They are in no ways armour piecing, nor are they designed to be so.

A copper or brass bullet are not really hard. Take one stand it upright on an anvil and give it a tap with a hammer and it will deform. Put it on its side and you can easily flatten it.

An armour piecing bullet contains a hardened steel core with a copper jacket so it can take the rifling. They are designed to penetrate armour. I have never tried one as I am not in the military so don’t know exactly how much they can penetrate. They are prohibited from sale to Section 1 FAC holders.

A lot of lead cored soft point bullets with enough impact velocity will leave a hole in piece of steel plate, even hardox plate. Have watched a few slow mo videos what seems to happen is that the impact energy immediately turns the core into a blob of red hot molten metal which then cuts through the plate almost like a cutting flame. The remaining holes have molten edges. Worst offenders are things like the 22-250 with bullets well over 3000 fps.

 

[wytonpjs]

I remember the first time I “missed” using my .243 with a standard lead core bullet at 100m and the round passed through both sections of ground defence angle iron I was using to hold the target captive.

Fast forward over 25 years and on a cold frosty morning a couple of years back I’m at Sennybridge sandwiched between the RCO and an Army “marksman” on a firing revetment firing steel-cored Chinese ammunition at 25-person life rafts at 50m, 100m and 300m. A bit different from my normal range in that I was required to don Osprey and a Kevlar lid. Suffice to say that at 300m the bullets not only passed through the glass fibre shells, the numerous layers of folded life raft tubes, covers, etc, but passed through the SOLAS compressed rations including water, and through the steel valve head of the inflation cylinder, and clean out the other side. I had expected that at 100m but not 300m!

Nasty stuff steel-cored ammunition!

 

[enfieldspares]

The 1970s American KTW revolver and pistol ammunition dubbed the "cop killer" bullet (and then banned in the USA) used a monometal bullet capable of penetrating light body armour. And as the OP says s5(1)(a)(e) includes the ability to penetrate "body armour" in its wording. The KTW in its most common iteration was made of brass.

I used to have an 8x57 stalking rifle. Indeed it was my first stalking rifle and somewhere I've a picture of it I will try to scan. At the time cheap "surplus" FMJ ammunition for such was either British 8mm Besa or more often ex-German WWII ammunition. I was luckily able to obtain an amount of this from an RFD in Leicester.

Shooting it on our local range on steel falling plates was interesting. Surplus .303 Mk VII knocked them over. This ex-German also did as it then punched straight through. The bargain surplus cartridges being blue annulus coloured. Which only later was found out that this meant it was the sMe steel cored bullet. Being, back then, not prohibited as it is nowadays under the 1988 Firearms Act passed by Thatcher's Government.

Teflon-coated bullet - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[rarms]

Under the 1968 Firearms Act Sect 5 1(a) (e)any ammunition for military use which consists in or incorporates a missile designed, on account of its having a jacket and hard-core, to penetrate armour plating, armour screening or body armour

At what point do these non-toxic bullets become armour or semi armour piercing.......

As per the wording. They are armour piercing in the eyes of the law when they are designed to be so.

Hunting bullets are not designed to be armour piercing and so are not classified as armour piercing.

Same principle as the age old 'bullets designed to expand'..

 

[SimpleSimon]

Under the 1968 Firearms Act Sect 5 1(a) (e)any ammunition for military use which consists in or incorporates a missile designed, on account of its having a jacket and hard-core, to penetrate armour plating, armour screening or body armour;

See the section I've highlighted above. The prohibition is based on the design of the bullet rather than its potential ability. There are multiple different standards in place for body armour depending on its level of resistance. I'd image most of us own rifles that could defeat the lower-middle tier using commercially available target ammo, but that doesn't make that ammo S5.

Edit. Must have crossed posts with @rarms above. What he said.

 

[Foxyboy43]

I remember the first time I “missed” using my .243 with a standard lead core bullet at 100m and the round passed through both sections of ground defence angle iron I was using to hold the target captive.

Fast forward over 25 years and on a cold frosty morning a couple of years back I’m at Sennybridge sandwiched between the RCO and an Army “marksman” on a firing revetment firing steel-cored Chinese ammunition at 25-person life rafts at 50m, 100m and 300m. A bit different from my normal range in that I was required to don Osprey and a Kevlar lid. Suffice to say that at 300m the bullets not only passed through the glass fibre shells, the numerous layers of folded life raft tubes, covers, etc, but passed through the SOLAS compressed rations including water, and through the steel valve head of the inflation cylinder, and clean out the other side. I had expected that at 100m but not 300m!

Nasty stuff steel-cored ammunition!

“firing steel-cored Chinese ammunition at 25-person life rafts at 50m, 100m and 300m”.
Could do with you at Dover now….

 

[Foxyboy43]

Non-defined armour piercing bullets have been around long before copper ones…

Reversed bullet - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[John Gryphon]

A copper or brass bullet are not really hard

You need to have a look at the Woodleigh Hydro bullets. Mate Frank shot a big Water buff bull through its horn,bullet was recovered in its hip.
They will out penetrate just about anything on the market. There is no body armour that will stop them but they work like a soft point as well.

 

[Heym SR20]

My understanding is that most body armour will stop pistol calibre bullets, shrapnel etc. It may stop intermediate military FMJ from intermediate cartridges such as 7.62x39.

To stop a bullet from 7.62 Nato requires very heavy ceramic plates etc, and even if the plate stops the bullet the impact energy still causes a lot of internal organ damage.

Most deer legal hunting cartridges have same order of magnitude of energy as 7.62Nato, and even if wearing full body armour with plates etc I certainly wouldn’t volunteer to be hit by any bullet fired out of a stalking rifle.

 

[Heym SR20]

You need to have a look at the Woodleigh Hydro bullets. Mate Frank shot a big Water buff bull through its horn,bullet was recovered in its hip.
They will out penetrate just about anything on the market. There is no body armour that will stop them but they work like a soft point as well.

The brass is still soft enough that the rifling can grip the bullet. They penetrate very well thanks to their shape and cavitation they cause at the front of bullet.

You mate Frank is very lucky, and sounds like the buffalo died on the spot. I witnessed a cattle eating lion being shot over a cow that had been used for bait. 375 H&H bullet went through the cows horn then into the lions face. He was shooting for head on chest shot as the lion stood over the cow he was in the process of killing. We tracked that lion for two days through thick buck. It was never very far ahead, leaving lots of fresh blood, but never saw it and it never charged. It was found dead a couple of days later. All its lower jaw smashed to pieces. It was a problem lion that had taken 40 odd cattle over the course of two or three months and was taking in broad daylight out of kraals in the middle of villages and was just a matter of time before it started dining on people.

 

[Selous]

Under the 1968 Firearms Act Sect 5 1(a) (e)any ammunition for military use which consists in or incorporates a missile designed, on account of its having a jacket and hard-core, to penetrate armour plating, armour screening or body

Haven’t you answered your own question? A monometal bullet does not possess a jacket and hard core. They are a monometal construction that possesses neither jacket or core. Furthermore the bullets destined for the hunting market are not designed to pierce armour. If there was a jacket and tungsten or similar core then they would doubtless fall under the wording that you have quoted.

 

[wytonpjs]

I remember the first time I “missed” using my .243 with a standard lead core bullet at 100m and the round passed through both sections of ground defence angle iron I was using to hold the target captive.

Fast forward over 25 years and on a cold frosty morning a couple of years back I’m at Sennybridge sandwiched between the RCO and an Army “marksman” on a firing revetment firing steel-cored Chinese ammunition at 25-person life rafts at 50m, 100m and 300m. A bit different from my normal range in that I was required to don Osprey and a Kevlar lid. Suffice to say that at 300m the bullets not only passed through the glass fibre shells, the numerous layers of folded life raft tubes, covers, etc, but passed through the SOLAS compressed rations including water, and through the steel valve head of the inflation cylinder, and clean out the other side. I had expected that at 100m but not 300m!

Nasty stuff steel-cored ammunition!

Some composite photos of that day on the range - sometimes, my day job can be quite fun

 

[John Gryphon]

You mate Frank is very lucky

Frank is the bloke that actually makes the Woodleigh hydros and in the event of there ever being a bullet being recovered it has been mentioned that ' you could even reload it'. They are an amazing design and rarely deviate,renowned for a straight line.

 

[weblyish]

Some composite photos of that day on the range - sometimes, my day job can be quite fun

View attachment 439790
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View attachment 439788

Thank you for adding the photos - I didnt want to say anything but when i read it the first time I assumed the life rafts were deployed and - to my knowledge - strafing survivors is not something you usually practice for

 

[jasonmillar]

Under the 1968 Firearms Act Sect 5 1(a) (e)any ammunition for military use which consists in or incorporates a missile designed, on account of its having a jacket and hard-core, to penetrate armour plating, armour screening or body armour;


Well any bullet is for military use and copper or brass bullets are designed to retain a hard core (i.e. retain weight) and whilst not steel are significantly harder than lead.

At what point do these non-toxic bullets become armour or semi-armour piercing as they can punch through screening, armour plating and body armour that would have stopped a lead bullet?

Steel core

 

[enfieldspares]

Czech 1950s 9mm Parabellum bullets used to have an iron core about the size and shape of a .32 ACP bullet. That to likely save lead but maybe a hangover from the days of the Austro-Hungarian Empire and a belief that breastplated cavalry might be encountered? How did we find out? Steel cored pistol bullets fired on an indoor range that uses a linotex curtained steel backplate can become quite interesting. We, the British, used aluminum tip fillers in .303 Mk VII the purpose of which was to improve the bullet's ballistic coefficient. It also make in tumble on impact which, say some, was the true purpose (of the aluminium tip filler) all along.

 

[andy R204]

I remember the first time I “missed” using my .243 with a standard lead core bullet at 100m and the round passed through both sections of ground defence angle iron I was using to hold the target captive.

Fast forward over 25 years and on a cold frosty morning a couple of years back I’m at Sennybridge sandwiched between the RCO and an Army “marksman” on a firing revetment firing steel-cored Chinese ammunition at 25-person life rafts at 50m, 100m and 300m. A bit different from my normal range in that I was required to don Osprey and a Kevlar lid. Suffice to say that at 300m the bullets not only passed through the glass fibre shells, the numerous layers of folded life raft tubes, covers, etc, but passed through the SOLAS compressed rations including water, and through the steel valve head of the inflation cylinder, and clean out the other side. I had expected that at 100m but not 300m!

Nasty stuff steel-cored ammunition!

Sennybridge,the only place I've seen horizontal rain

 

[Foxyboy43]

Czech 1950s 9mm Parabellum bullets used to have an iron core about the size and shape of a .32 ACP bullet. That to likely save lead but maybe a hangover from the days of the Austro-Hungarian Empire and a belief that breastplated cavalry might be encountered? How did we find out? Steel cored pistol bullets fired on an indoor range that uses a linotex curtained steel backplate can become quite interesting. We, the British, used aluminum tip fillers in .303 Mk VII the purpose of which was to improve the bullet's ballistic coefficient. It also make in tumble on impact which, say some, was the true purpose (of the aluminium tip filler) all along.

Reading this post reminded me of a day at Sanglier in the Languedoc where the bullet of choice for the obligatory 300 magnum was Russian steel core bullets - smuggled in by post. No I don’t know how (or why) either….

 

[Norfolk Deer Search]

Simple answer to this question is-

When it doesn’t hit a safe backstop end off.